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Automated Dosing Methods

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improdigal View Drop Down
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    Posted: August 28 2004 at 10:11am

Hi Everyone,

I've been looking at different methods for automated dosing of your tank and wanted to see how others do it.

I've thought about calcium reactors for calcium (but they seem mighty pricey), but what about alkalinity, PH, iodine, and even vitamins/minerals.

Is it common to use IV medical equipment for dosing? I saw one person selling old IV pumps at a meeting and thought that was a pretty nifty idea. They seem to be all over eBay and some are pretty cheap. But I haven't seen yet whether or not they are able to adminster slowly enough to put out < kg/hr.

Thoughts?



Edited by improdigal
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfinch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2004 at 10:20am

A calcium reactor will provide both calcium and alkalinity.  Kalkwasser will also provide both.  Kalk dosing is what many of those IV pumps are used for.  Probably no reason to dose anything else, imo.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote improdigal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2004 at 10:30am

Ok, what does kalkwasser provide to the tank. I'm not really familiar with what it does.

In addition to a Calcium Reactor and Kalkwasser, there would still be needs for dosing iodine, right? Anything else needed in a reef tank that I'm forgetting?

Patrick
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adam Haycock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2004 at 10:52am
You can simply use IV tubing. The ones at my work have a regulator which allows you to control drip rate. I don't think it would need to be exact for dripping kalk. Also, infusion pumps require some sort of certification to buy I think. At my work, we throw away about 60 kalk dosers a day .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote improdigal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2004 at 11:04am

So, can someone tell me what Kalkwasser does and why everyone is using it? Does it replace other dosing or is it something I should be doing that I'm not. 

Also, I also heard that Calcium reactors provide Strontium and molbidium? as well. Does Kalk?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfinch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2004 at 12:34pm

Kalk is lime (calcium hydroxide).  When it's dissolved in freshwater and dosed (or just dumped) it delivers both calcium and alkalinity to your tank.  Here's what happens:

Ca(OH)2 + H2O = Ca + 2OH +H2O    this is solid kalk dissloving in water

2OH + 2CO2 = 2HCO3  this is hydroxide from the kalk forming bicarbonate (or carbonate)

So you end up with one Ca + 2 HCO3 (bicarbonate)

There's your calcium and alkalinity for corals to use.

 

A calcium reactor uses CO2 to dissolve old coral skeletons.

CaCO3 + CO2 + H2O = Ca + 2HC03

Again you end up with one Ca and 2 HCO3 (bicarbonate)

calcium reactors will also deliver what ever other elements are incorporated in the skeleton of the coral since it all dissolves in the low pH of the reactor.  Kalk does not provide these other elements.  Water changes and/or other supplements can provide these.

As for iodine, I don't add any to my tank so setting up a dosing system doesn't make sense for me.  But if you are dosing lots of it (I can't imagine why) it might for you.  A couple drops per week of Lugal's is pretty easy to keep up with.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfinch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2004 at 12:37pm

Oh, some people use kalk because it's cheap and other use it to keep their tank's pH in a good range.  Tanks with calcium reactors, because of the addition of CO2, can have difficulty keeping the pH up.  Kalk can help this situation.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote improdigal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2004 at 12:46pm

Ok, thanks for the detailed info finch. One more question. Is kalk consistent enough to dose regularly, or does it need to be adjusted often? Does it raise alkalinity (and risk it going too high?) or balance it to where it needs to be?

Oh, and back to the original question of the thread. What are the different methods people use for auto-dosing kalk?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfinch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2004 at 1:29pm

Kalk can be dosed regularly without much adjustment to the method.  It can raise alkalinity too high, but any additive system can do that too.  The real risk with kalkwasser is if overdone it can raise your pH to dangerous levels.  Kalk, calcium reactors and B-ionic are all "balanced" additives and should not be used to increase calcium/alk levels.  These methods are used to maintain levels.  Without some sort of calcium/alk addition your levels will drop below natural seawater levels (ime) and this is not desired.  If you want to increase calcium levels use something like turbo calcium (calcium chloride).  If you want to increase alkalinity use a commercial buffer or baking soda.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smatney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2004 at 1:53pm

Patrick,

IV pumps are programmed with number of cc's per hour, not kg.  Some can go as low as a cc an hour, it depends on the pump.  Baby syringe pumps can be set to less than one cc per hour.  If you get one and want to know how to program it, you can ask Suzy or I.  

Susan Matney
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfinch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2004 at 2:32pm

At my work, we throw away about 60 kalk dosers a day .

Can you direct me to that garbage can?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote improdigal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2004 at 2:37pm

Hey Banana, I assume you're just talking about the driplines, right? If so, how can you tell how much you're really putting in (8kg/day etc)

Patrick
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfinch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2004 at 2:43pm
Oh... I want a pump, not IV tubing 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Suzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2004 at 3:32pm
I used to drip Kalk from IV tubing. I finally got sick of the stupid
things clogging up every time I wanted to add to it. I think the dosing
pumps would be the same. You would need to have a friend who
works in a hospital that could get you some tubing....

I don't use an "automatic" system. I don't think it is worth the hassle.
I just put some Buffer and Calcium in once in a while. But, I do lots of
water changes. The water from the fry tanks goes to the reef, and
then once in a while I suck out some cyano into the drain.....

I think fry poop is good coral food!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Suzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2004 at 3:39pm
BTW, There is a fish store in Sandy that had the coolest automatic
doser in town! It would add ca and buffer, check the temp and o2,
monitor the pumps continuously! It would even page the owner if
something went awry!

But, Saturday night, something went haywire. It didn't page the
owner and Monday morning, the staff was cleaning up the tank.
Thousands of dollars of corals and fish were lost. They had to hurry
and get it back to looking gorgeous 'cause the owner made a lot of
moola selling the auto stuff....

Sometimes, simpler is better.... Nothing can replace a conscientious
aquarium owner!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote improdigal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2004 at 3:40pm

Originally posted by Suzy Suzy wrote:

I don't use an "automatic" system. I don't think it is worth the hassle.

But I'm trying to get away from the "Hassle" of keeping track which stuff I'm supposed to be dosing when.

I want to take all the stuff I'm dosing (Calcium, Alk, Strontium, Iodine, minerals), get a pump for each one, divide the weekly dose by 7 days, then by 24 hours, and set the pump to release that much per hour and not worry about it anymore (except to test the water daily for a while to make sure it's keeping it balanced).

That is my fish geek dream Suzy....complete automation (oh if only I could hook the whole thing up to my computer and have it monitor my water levels and dose automatically and I could watch the whole thing across the web from work)

Patrick
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote improdigal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2004 at 3:45pm

Originally posted by Suzy Suzy wrote:

But, Saturday night, something went haywire. It didn't page the
owner and Monday morning, the staff was cleaning up the tank.
Thousands of dollars of corals and fish were lost.

Did it over/under dose or did he have it running his pumps and flooded/drained the tank?

Patrick
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adam Haycock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2004 at 3:46pm

With the IV tubing, you can estimate drips/min. Which can be converted to ml/min or ml/day. It is not completely accurate, but pretty close. Ive never tried the ones from my work for kalk, so don't know how well they work. As Suzy mentioned, if the thing gets clogged, it will change the drip rate. I was thinking about using one to dose phytoplankton. I can save a couple if someone wants to try one. I'll try to get most of the blood off ....ok, I won't save that part.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote improdigal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2004 at 3:51pm

Speaking of automation. I just put in a 6 stage RO/DI filter with a hose running to a float valve on my tank. Free Topoffs for life.

Just tested it the other day it works great....I'm PUMPED!  (get it! PUMPED....yuck yuck yuck *slaps knee*)

Patrick
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Travis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2004 at 3:55pm
I think the easiest & safest automatic way to add kalk would be a gravity feed into the sump using a float valve in the sump.  I use a float switch and powerhead but have had two almost serious accidents with it.  Float valves are more reliable so there would be less chance of it failing. 
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