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lewistonbaker 
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 Topic: Novice seeking help.
Posted: April 30 2006 at 9:28pm |
Hello,
My wife and I are new to saltwater. We bought a 150 gallon established saltwater tank with hundreds of mushrooms, and some other soft corals, snails, crabs, 3 perculas, etc. Two and a half weeks before we picked up the tank, the pump and lights and heater got turned off, and everything died. We transported everything home, including the water and re-set up the tank about a month ago.
We ended up with a single mushroom that survived and two snails, and several Aiptasia which have done nothing but multiply.
We have 3 - 250 watt metal halide lights, 3 blue acitinics (all at least a year old), a wave maker with four small powerheads, a protein skimmer, and a small 20 gallon refugium with some sand, rock and nothing else.
We have purchased 150 small detritus-eating snails (Oblagatas?) and 125 small blue legged hermits and a single cleaner shrimp. We've added three fish and sadly lost all three (a powder blue tang, and two small Chromis). The tang lasted 4 days, one Chromis disappeared (?), and the other lived 12 days.
We have a 6 inch sand bed (but we have no idea how live it is anymore), and about 75+ lbs of live rock (we hope). The temperature is between 78 and 80 degrees, Nitrate, Nitrite, Ammonia, PH and Salinity are all right where they should be.
We are looking for some Peppermint shrimp to help our Aiptasia problem, some macro algae for our naked refugium, some sand stirrers (not sure anything survived that 2 1/2 weeks before we brought the tank home), some Algae eating snails to help with our considerable Algae problem, and some friendly advice.
We'll be at the meeting on the 4th, anxiously looking to expand our knowledge and bring home whatever we can to help our situation.
Thanks,
Dale and Terri Baker
Edited by Shane H - April 30 2006 at 11:35pm
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Dale and Terri Baker
150 gal. Salt in Cache Valley
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: April 30 2006 at 10:26pm |
Welcome to the WMAS Message Board. We look forward to meeting you on the 4th.
How sad that everything went south shortly before bringing home the tank.
How long had the tank been running before you bought it?
How was the sand and rock handled in transport?
Was it kept in water?
Was the sand kept wet in the tank or was it removed and put back in.
Was the sand rinsed before it went back in?
Is there any algae growth? Especially on the glass.
The snails you bought could actually be quite helpful for the current condition because they eat detritus/crud in the sand, though algae eating snails will soon be needed. Would it be too much trouble if we were to see the actual test results for Alkalinity and Nitrate?
Your tank is not ready for much of the coral that the "Frag Fest" will provide, but if there are any soft coral already attached (not cut and propagated at the meeting), that is what I would recommend as a second coral. Hold off on fish for now.
There should be some macroalgae available at the meeting. I'm bringing Halimeda and possibly some Caulerpa and Chaetomorpha.
I'm not sure I would worry too much about Aiptasia just yet. It would be a shame to lose Peppermint Shrimp if the tank cannot yet support them.
 Sounds like you have been doing some research.
BTW, in what part of town are you located?
Edited by Mark Peterson - April 30 2006 at 10:28pm
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Shane H
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Posted: April 30 2006 at 10:45pm |
Dale and Terri,
Welcome to the WMAS!
From reading your post, its clear that you have done some research! That is a great first step and will most definately pay off in the end. Fortunately, those items on your want list will be available at the meeting this coming Thursday.
I can give you some advice: be patient. The hobby takes time and perseverance. Now, read what come next (very likely from Mark) and good luck.
BTW, I wouldn't worry anymore about sifting the sand. That many hermits will take care of that!
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Ryan Thompson
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Posted: April 30 2006 at 10:49pm |
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mark can i get dibs on some of the halimeda?
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Angel
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Posted: April 30 2006 at 11:03pm |
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Hi there and welcome. One thing you will get here is freindly advice. Same you have lost so much in your tank but with help here you will be able to be successfull..
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Connie
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: April 30 2006 at 11:21pm |
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It's first come first served, but I try to portion it so there is enough for everyone.
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lewistonbaker
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Posted: April 30 2006 at 11:57pm |
Ok,
PH was 8.3, Nitrite was less than 0.3 mg/l, Ammonia was zero, salinity - between .022 and.023, Nitrate is at 0, Alkalinity is 2.5.
The tank had been running for more than 3 years, and pretty successfully, we think.
We transported everything in huge rubber containers. We pumped some of the tank water into the containers, then gently lifted the rock out of the tank and put it in the tubs, until all of the water and all of the rock was removed. The rock remained submerged for the entire move. Then we scooped out the sand and put it in a container with the remainder of the tank water. We drove it all home (about 25 miles) and as soon as we got home, we put pumps, lights and heaters in each of the tubs with the rock and the sand to begin circulating and warming the water, rock, sand, etc. The next day, we disassembled the tank and equipment, cleaned it up, moved it and reassembled it. We did rinse the sand slightly with 20 gallons of tank water that we reserved. We put all of the tank water, rock and sand in the tank and added about 40 gallons of premixed, heated 4 day aged water (yes we have an RO/DI).
Algae: Oh yes, we have algae. Lots of beautiful, long, flowing, pesky Algae. Some on the glass, but we've tried to keep that cleaned off. We're hand pruning it everyother day or so. The Aiptasia's worry me. We had about 8 survive the move, but we must have 30 or 40 now. They're in everyrock, and in the sand, and we've seen a few tiny free floating babies.
Your expertise is most welcome. We've been reading and studying for about 6 months, anticipating beginning a saltwater reef aquarium, but so far we've had lots of puzzling frustrations and we're hoping you can help us find some success.
We're in Cache Valley in Lewiston, a little town near the Idaho Border.
Thanks for your help.
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MissMarilyn
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Posted: May 01 2006 at 10:23pm |
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I will be bringing some macro and I can give you a scoop of sand from my refugium too.
:) M
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Currently looking for tank...
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lewistonbaker
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Posted: May 01 2006 at 11:05pm |
Thank you MissMarilyn.
Anyone have any ideas why our fish keep dying? We are able to keep some things alive. Our little Skunk Cleaner Shrimp is a happy little guy that will eat out of all of our hands. He's growing and has even molted already. We have some tiny feather dusters on all of the rocks, and have seen some tiny 1/4" red and white spiky worms (some kind of bristle worm maybe?).
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Dale and Terri Baker
150 gal. Salt in Cache Valley
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Suzy
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Posted: May 02 2006 at 6:27am |
 lewistonbaker wrote:
Algae: Oh yes, we have algae. Lots of beautiful, long, flowing, GORGEOUS Algae. |
OOOH! I am going to like this guy! I did correct your spelling error in your quote! Welcome to the club! Your tank sounds like it has wonderful potential! Sounds like everyone beat me to offer macro, but I can bring some zooplankton for you. See you then!
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Kevin F
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Posted: May 02 2006 at 10:59am |
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IMO there are several things wrong with your current tank that are
giving you these problems. It is a mix and not just one source problem.
You said the tank was off for weeks. Long enough to kill mushooms, long
enough to deplete the oxygen source to the aerobic bacteria that lived
on the surface of your liverock. Keeping the rock submerged there would
be no die off on the rocks to create ammonia. YOur nitrite levels are
also consistant with this when factoring in your algae bloom.
If it were me I'd feed the tank some ammonia and then test it an hour
later, see if it read 0. I wouldn't use the pure unscented ammonia in
this case because it reaks havic with the PH and needs large water
changes, and it's more of a guess being that I have never seen your
tank or have any personal experience. Just toss in some mysis, or
frozen brine, in a 150 do 10 cubes, then test for ammonia an hour
later. If the test reads any ammonia then you are cycling a tank from
scratch. As far as the frozen food just leave it in there no matter
what the reading is, your tank should be able to absorb that much
organic matter. After all that's only a couple days worth of fish
feeding, and you got some cleaners.
The sandbed, you disrupted a DSB. That can bring all of the bacteria's
pathogens, phosphates, food waste, etc that has accumulated in the life
of that tank since it's begining right in to your water column. That's
going to take some time to settle. Those snails may be helpful, but
time is going to be your best friend here. I think this is probably the
root of your algae outbreak. Again it's just speculation but it would
be very common.
If the algae is growing like mad it is probably working on absorbing
the extra phosphates as well as many of the nitrates. If you are not
really an algae fan there are several biological remedies available to
you that would go very well in a 150g.
Also just as a side not, what filtration are you running? Unless you
got something serious under that cabinet, your probably going to ned to
get more liveorck to maintain a stable amount of biological filtration.
Hope it helps. Any more questions?
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The mediocre mind is incapable of understanding the man who refuses to bow blindly to conventional prejudices and chooses instead to express his opinions courageously and honestly. Albert Einstein
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lewistonbaker
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Posted: May 02 2006 at 4:19pm |
OK,
Filtration: two hang on the back continuous siphon overflows that go into a 35 gal bucket holding about 20 gallons of water, rock and about 2 inches of sand. We have a turboflotor 1000 protein skimmer with a 9.5 magdrive pump cycling water back to the main system. That's it. We have the return outlet and 4 small powerheads for water circulation inside the tank. But that's it. Nothing organic in the refugium at all.
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Dale and Terri Baker
150 gal. Salt in Cache Valley
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sshm
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Posted: May 02 2006 at 6:11pm |
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Sorry for the sidetrack but I have some chaetomorpha for your fuge, which I can bring on thursday... LMK..
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bbeck4x4
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Posted: May 02 2006 at 9:41pm |
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there is no way I would add ammonia ever to my tank. there are better ways to test the tank. IMO
Brian
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Dion Richins
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Posted: May 02 2006 at 11:52pm |
bbeck4x4 wrote:
there is no way I would add ammonia ever to my tank. there are better ways to test the tank. IMO
Brian
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I agree. It sounds like throwing gas on a fire.
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lewistonbaker
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Posted: May 03 2006 at 1:01am |
Ok, what is a better way to test our aquarium?
And thanks to all who have offered their help and advice, we hope to thank you all in person on Thursday.
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Dale and Terri Baker
150 gal. Salt in Cache Valley
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Dion Richins
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Posted: May 03 2006 at 1:30am |
Cache Valley! Come on you Nothern fish freeks. Lets give a friend a hand.
The best advise I can give with out seeing the tank is time. Pick up the macro from the meeting. Make sure you have good light in your refug and that will help tremendously in the removal of the nutreants feeding the pesky algea.
Second, Pick up as muck live sand that you can from as many members that you can. I will bring some for you. Your system has suffered a major disaster. It needs all the live infusion that we can give you. My 125 has live sand from 9 different tanks when I set it up. Several pounds from some. IMO it helps to get things going on the right track. If you want I will also donate a couple of pounds of live rock. It all adds bio diversity for your system. With infusions from several members tanks you will see great strides fairly soon.
I didnt notice, but are you useing a filter sock? If not I would recomend useing one at least for now. Also do weekly water changes in the neiborhood of 20g at a time. That will bring your "bad" levels down and help with maintaining the nessesary levels of the essentials. IMHO I wouldnt put ammonia or anything else in your tank that can push you backwards.
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: May 03 2006 at 2:36am |
I can help.
Please read this www.garf.org/ugly.html and then call me to discuss the specific pros and cons of things that can be done with your particular tank. My number is below. If long distance is a problem, call me with your number and I'll call you right back.
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lewistonbaker
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Posted: May 03 2006 at 11:15pm |
Thanks to all for your advice. It's been quite an education.
We talked with Mark Peterson today who offered some good advice and told us of some good articles to read. Then Steve Burton called and generously offered to come over and test and look over the aquarium. We learned a lot from his visit, and apparently things are not as dire as we thought, he said he's seen worse. All water parameters were good (Calcium was a little low). The hair algae is abating a bit thanks to some good advice (ugly mermaid web artical referenced above - Thanks Mark). We've pulled out tons of algae by hand, and the regrowth is slowing down. The hermits and snails are beginning to make some noticeable difference.
Thanks to Steve we now have a plan on how to improve our refugium, overflows, water flow, aquarium look, and have a better idea on how to proceed with inverts, fish and corals. Today was quite and education, and we're looking forward to tomorrow nights meeting.
Thank you to all who have offered live sand and macro algae, I think that will be the final puzzle piece that will get us set in the right direction.
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Dale and Terri Baker
150 gal. Salt in Cache Valley
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Kevin F
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Posted: May 04 2006 at 12:51pm |
bbeck4x4 wrote:
there is no way I would add
ammonia ever to my tank.
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So how do you guys test your new tanks? What do you use to cycle them?
A tank completely devoid of all life will read zero as will a tank will
sufficent bacteria growth. Without a catalyst to stimulate the ammonia
in the system you have no way of knowing if your tank is cycled IMO.
Adding a source for ammonia waiting an hour and then getting a test
reading of zero is how you know if your tank is ready to add fish.
Many people use damsel fish as there source because they are a hardy
fish, will create ammonia, and sometimes even live through the process.
IMO this is cruel. Buying a fish to torture it is not something I could
do. The ammonia methods and fish food methods are far more effective
IME anyways. Besides who wants a damsel in there tank. Those things are
hard to catch and get out.
The use of pure unscented ammonia is a commonly agreed upon concept and
one that many aquaculture facilities use. It is by far the safest way
to add ammonia into a new system for the purpose of seeing if the
system has developed enough bacteria to support a bioload. Some
aquaculture facilities caculate the future bioload of the system and
then add twice the amount of ammonia to the tank to ensure that the
bacteria colonies are established well enough to support the future
load.
Pure unscented ammonia is considered to be the safest way to introduce
ammonia because it does not require the decaying of various fish foods.
Thoe who stake there livelyhood on the health of there systems, as well
as hundreds of thousands of dollars, cannont risk the contamination of
a harmful bacteria being introduced by decaying food. When the fish is
freshly thawed it is at one state, but as it thaws out over time it can
become more toxic, much the same way you would not eat a steak if you
left if on the counter for a week in 90F temperatures. It was fine when
frozen, but not after a few days.
The biggest draw back to using pure unscented ammonia over typical fish
foods, or grocery store bought table shrimp is the method requires a
large water change of 90%. The pure unscented ammonia can reek havoic
on the PH of a tank so while it is very useful in establishing
bacterial colonies, it is a complete PITA in terms of the water change
on a large tank. One thing if you got a 20g, another thing if you have
a 150g IMO.
The reason I suggested using frozen food instead of the pure unscented
ammonia method is because he already has a cleanup crew, and the water
change on that tank would be harsh. Personally I have no problem using
either method, I believe both to be effective. I have used both and had
great results.
As far as people not wanting to add ammonia to there systems, what do
you think you are doing everytime you feed your fish. Whether the fish
eats it and poos it out, or whether it falls behind a rock and rots,
that food is going to turn into ammonia in your system.
Edited by DaMan - May 04 2006 at 12:52pm
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The mediocre mind is incapable of understanding the man who refuses to bow blindly to conventional prejudices and chooses instead to express his opinions courageously and honestly. Albert Einstein
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