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Setting ozone levels

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dadofrad View Drop Down
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    Posted: July 03 2006 at 4:17pm

I bought an ozone set up to help control ick when I first got my tangs. I haven't had ick since the initial introduction of the tangs, but feel like I am not recognizing the full bennefits of the ozone.

I currently have the orp level set at 350 and haven't had to recharge my drying beads yet (going on 2 Months). My natural (non ozone) levels are as high as 385 when I check it in the mornings and average 370+ durring the day except at feedings. How close to your natural high mark do you set your ozone?
 
Regardless of the orp level you set, do you keep reaching a level where your tank maintains a specific orp level and your ozone unit isn't utilized? 
 
I have soft corrals and clams, and am wondering how high is to high for filter feeders?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2006 at 1:05am
I'm not following you. What do you mean by "natural high mark"? I get a natural high when playing around with my tanks.
 
O3 does not bring an ORP level up to some point and then become unutilized. We believe it's the O3 which is keeping the the Redox at that point and when removed the ORP level will fall.
 
The weird thing about O3 is that we don't really understand it that well. It can be more than 500 even as much as 700 in a tank without O3, yet in another tank, the use of O3 to try to raise it past 400 may kill things. ORP/Redox is still a strange bird, at this time in the hobby. All we really know for sure is that it works. The how and why are still unclear.
 
What color are the beads?
 
How much O3 is being delivered, in what manner and to what size of tank?


Edited by Mark Peterson - July 04 2006 at 1:18am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dadofrad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2006 at 11:55am

An example of what I mean by a Natural High. Right now my orp controller is showing a reading of 386 mv. Which under current sittuations I would consider this the best that my system is able to "clean the water" (my natural high) without the addition of ozone. Durring the day when my refugium lights turn off the readings of mv will drop into the 370 mv range, and then into the 350 mv range when I feed the fish. 

Currently I have my orp controller set to turn on at 350 mv which is the extreme low end of my readings. I feel that this allows my system to maintain itself with back up reserve cleaning power if something goes wrong in the system. Which in turn means that the ozone unit rarely turns on and I still have purple beads even at the entry end of the dryer after 2 months. The package information says that they are suppost to turn a pink color when they need to be recharged.
 
What I am trying to determine is if I bump my ozone contoler up to turn on quicker decreasing the current swing of 350 - 386 mv and creating a more constant environment for the tank in general,  at what point will I be removing to much food product from the water and starving my clams and dedicated filter feeders such as the feather dusters and coco worm?
 
I don't have an acurate way to tell you how much ozone is being delivered. The unit I have does not give a reading, it just allows you to adjust a deliverable amount of 0 to 250 by a rotating nob.
 
As far as the size of my aquarium the display is 120 gallon with two 50 gallon aquariums underneath acting as a refugium.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbeck4x4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2006 at 1:03pm
it sounds like your probe needs to be cleaned, when the probe gets dirty the orp reads high,

this was pulled from a search here.

verry little will be alive: below 100mv
very bad : below 140 mv
bad :140 to 180 mv
poor: 180 to 200 mv
too low :200 to 220
New salt water : 220 to 240mv
low: 220 to 270mv
medium : 270 to 310 mv
good: 310 to 340mv
batter: 240 to 360mv
Best :360 to 390mv
high :390 to 450mv
too high: over 450mv
Dangerous :over 525 mv
Very dangerous:over 575

now with all of that I keep My orp at 320 to 350 at this setting the ozone is allways running at a setting of 75% this way there is allways some sanitation happening, when I try to go higher the levels rise and fall, so it's a on and off thing,

one other thing each probe has a slightly different calibration, the exact number is not important, what is important is how the tank is doing, looks, and the consistancy of the numbers, IMHO.

when the orp probe gets dirty the reading goes high and the ozone unit turns off, I clean the probe and the reading falls,

FYI, with the commercial swimming pools and hot tubs that I am in charge of, the orp setpoint is  775mv  of course that is with (huge ozone generators) and  liquid chlorine orp 24/7 monitoring computers.

Now the same thing will happen with my commercial pools when the orp probe gets dirty,  the reading stays high and the levels of sanitation drop, if I don't catch it in time the hot tub or pool will go green quite quickly. That is why I have to do chemical tests every day to verify the computers probe (orp PH) are correct.


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Edited by bbeck4x4 - July 04 2006 at 1:09pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dadofrad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2006 at 1:47pm
Thanks Brian, I will clean the probe and see what numbers I get. Also thanks for the explanations.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2006 at 4:07pm

Using O3 to increase oxidation in a reef aquarium is a little different than trying to kill every microbe in a hot tub.

Since it doesn't run much, your fish are evidently staying ich free on their own. Imagine that.
 
O3, used properly, will actually help those filter feeders because it assists the tank to oxidize/burn up waste products.
 
This may sound crazy but having the O3 turned off and on by the "controller" is a waste of time, IMO. Assuming that Ozone Generator produces 250 mg/l , hence the writing on the unit, when the knob is turned all the way that's 250. Half way should be 125 mg/l
Try this:
Set the knob to 5% of it's travel (about 12 mg/l) and watch the ORP for a few days. As long as it hasn't gone higher than 400, nudge the knob a little higher. Watch the ORP and the tank. Is everything looking okay. Great. Leave it there for a few days or longer. Things will be fine. You could try increasing it later to see if it makes things look better or worse. As long as adjustments are made small and days are allowed to observe the effect, your tank will be fine.
 
In normal conditions, the probe cannot be dirty after only 2 months.
 
Also, as time passes Ozone generators lose productivity, so the knob needs to be turned up to get the same production.
 
IMO, O3 should be periodically tested by sucking on the output. (Note: suck not inhale ) O3 has a particular taste. At 5 mg/l the taste is barely discernable, at 30 mg/l it's pretty strong and at 50 mg/l it's nasty.


Edited by Mark Peterson - July 04 2006 at 4:30pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbeck4x4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2006 at 4:57pm
the probe does tend to accululate algea growth which causes the reading to change upward, I have heard of people cleaning probes on a weekly basis, my probe is one that I borrowed from the pools, that had been inaccurate to use on a pool, so it is designed differently, but it has been staying clean for months at a time.

The controller IMHO is there as a safety so that in case the o3 unit or probe goes nuts the controller will shut it down,

I have ozone units that are in excess of 5+ years(on the pools) that are showing no signs of loss of o3 output, Mark where did you get that info?

As far as the hottubs and pools I wish that I could kill every microbe, it would be easier, in fact, when everything is doing great I am simply keeping it in balance, nothing more,
  very similar things are in play, and at the least, the science is the same. The way to get there is very different, I agree, but I still measure and adjust, alk, calcuim levels, ph and orp.

Belive me those micobes put up one heck of a fight day in and day out.

But then again we don't have people swiming in our tanks daily.

Oh, and if I could fill that 80K pool with salt and live rock, you better belive I would.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2006 at 5:39pm

Humidity causes the unit to corrode. Keeping the unit out from under the stand and changing out drying beads would keep it going a long time.

A public reef to swim in, right here in Utah. That would be way way cool. let's do it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfinch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2006 at 6:17pm

The weird thing about O3 is that we don't really understand it that well. It can be more than 500 even as much as 700 in a tank without O3, yet in another tank, the use of O3 to try to raise it past 400 may kill things.

I would argue that ORP is understood (it's used extensively in the water treatment industry) and it doesn't make any difference if it's measuring in a swimming pool, cooling tower, sewer effluent or reef tank.  And a reef tank with an ORP of 700 mV is not going to be a healthy tank (I suspect you had a bad or dirty probe). 
 
and I still have purple beads even at the entry end of the dryer after 2 months.
 
Then don't trust the color change.  They're spent and you should recharge 'em.
 
This may sound crazy but having the O3 turned off and on by the "controller" is a waste of time,
 
I agree with Mark (ok, 50% of that statement).  I would think it's gotta be better to dribble a small amount over longer times (all day) then have it cycling on and off.  If I had a controller I'd only use it to shut off if the orp got too high (400 - 425, in my unexperienced opinion) and I'd throttle the ozone output down to the point that the controller never turned it off.  I'm beginning to think that Mark's right about just eyeballing it too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbeck4x4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2006 at 6:38pm
When I first got the ozone unit installed, I brought the ozone slowly up over a period of a month or so, and then the ozone would stay high for days at a time, with out turning on at all, then it fell into a cycle that it would be on for a few days then off for a few days, so I turned the output down just a little until the unit was running all of the time, with that change the tank seems to be doing better(along with keeping up on water changes, they still matter) overall, than with out the ozone unit.

I belive and agree with Mark, that the entire tank should be  eyeballed every  day  so that  you can see the changes, Just the other day My wife was complaining on how the tank had lost some of it's color, and sure enough the alk, and calcium levels had dropped, what had changed?
I had been neglecting water changes.  Did two 10% water changes over a 4 day period, and wow the tank looks better again. so for all of our high tech, the basics still matter
I really need to get the Kalk up and going but for some reason I just think that I am going to crash the entire tank by mixing it up wrong.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dadofrad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2006 at 11:45pm
Ok the probe was causing a artificial high. I am down to 330 mv and the ozone is up and running.
 
I really like what has been said here, and have been thinking about Julian Srpungs lecture about chemical warfare between the corals. It would be my guess that if the ozone ran constant it may aid a great deal in neutralizing this type of fuding between neighboring corals, and eradicating any come back of the ick I originally purchased it for, besides the obvious cleaner water.
 
I would also agree that the controler needs to be set as an uper end limiter not as an off and on cycler of ozone, allowing a constant inflow of ozone at what ever that level may be. Now to get everything dialed in, and start recognizing the bennifits O3 has to offer, instead of having an expensive paper weight.
 
I appreciate the feed back and open discussion of thoughts. Like life our aquariums don't come with an owners manual. (who reads directions any way?)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 05 2006 at 12:06am
Okay. Here's a question.
 
Since ORP is a measure of "potential", could a newly set up tank without fish and without O3, but with mature LS, mature LR and an ORP indicator, measure over 500?  over 700?


Edited by Mark Peterson - July 05 2006 at 12:08am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfinch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 05 2006 at 8:48am
could a newly set up tank without fish and without O3, but with mature LS, mature LR and an ORP indicator, measure over 500?  over 700?
 
No, I don't think so.
 
Your tap or RO water will likely have an ORP ~350 mV.  Bacteria drive ORP down (well decomposing bacteria).  If your rock is "live" it is also dying, providing food for these reducing bacteria.
 
Since ORP is a measure of "potential",
 
You might not be using that term correctly.  It's not "potential" in the way you'd say "Jimmy's going to Harvard Law School, he has the potential to be very successful".  It's potential in the electrial sense.  i.e. voltage.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 06 2006 at 12:14am
"Potential" <--> "millivolts"
Of course. I'll bet you could see the light go on in my head from miles away on that one.
 
But I still don't understand ORP like I should. Do a little reading, I will.
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