using old fresh water for new salt water

Carl, good call...

Welcome.
Congratulations for finding the WMAS website and good for you for asking the question. Here is my opinion of what a person new to the hobby should do. We have had many separate threads lately regarding the same "newbie" question, BTW.

Read, listen and compare several sources of information.
Initially disregard most things written more than 10 years ago regarding "proper" marine aquarium set-ups.

Be cautious regarding everything you read and hear.

Visit all the pages of this site and ask questions along the way, as you are already doing.

Know that there are many ways to do it and most ways will work, even using a freshwater tank without cleaning it.

Besides the pet store or online get some Live Rock and Live Sand from local hobbyists. This ensures that you will have a variety of helpful cleaning organisms that are suited to typical marine aquaria and beneficial to your own little ecosystem.

Know that many coral are easier to care for than fish. My opinion is that someone that doesn't place easy corals in with their fish hasn't noticed how much more beautiful the tank can be . It's sort of like adding drapes to the windows and pictures on the walls of your home.

Start with a few organisms and add more as time and $$ permit.

Be ready to change the tank as you go along and don't be surprised when you learn that something you first thought was "gospel" truth turns out to be just someones opinion, and sometimes kinda wrong!

Email me and ask for the reference materials prepared by the WMAS to help us learn more about how to effectively keep marine/reef aquaria. [email protected]

crazy-sps wrote: There is lots of bacteria in the water, not just in the sand and rock.  Adam, do you have a link or something for me read?  I am curious about the bacteria free-floating.  Again, possibly I have learned from the wrong source.

You have definately learned from the wrong source.  But don't worry, it is something that everyone is confused on.  I don't want to sound like I know everything, because this isn't my specialty but I'll try. 

There is a TON of bacteria in the water column.  Around 1x10^6 bacteria per mililiter.  In my mind that is an astounding number.  Now the substrate WATER (NOT THE SUBSTRATE ITSELF) contains around 10x more than that.  Yes, I know that will cause some discussion but water in the substrate may be more important than substrate size. 

However..... I didn't say that this bacteria is the denitrifying bacteria.  Although I am saying it now, there is the bacteria for all stages of nitrification in the water column.  In other words, without live sand, or live rock, you can cycle an aquarium just by using water from other tanks.  My tank contains about 50% water from Steve Lopez, I figured that was good enough to get my tank going. 

So, there is a ton of bacteria in the water (in my mind) but most of the "filtration" bacteria is certainly in the water around the substrate. 

Hope this clarify things, sorry if I didn't explain that well before.

Adam

Got in on this a little late. I would like to offer my 2 cents. I am farely cheap not by choice. However with how much I spend on livestock water is a very small expense. I have invested in an ro unit and only use ro water. When i first started this hobbie I used regular tap water. I had major algea problems and would never do this again. I dont want to start a debate about ro vs tap because I knw some people on this board use tap water sucessfully. My whole point without rembling on is WHY RISK IT !! Use new water in your salt water tank. There is no reason not to unless you conducting a scientific experiment for some reason.

I once heard a respected guest speaker say that the ammonia in fish urine quickly turns to nitrite while still in the water column! Could this be factual?

Lithotrophic bacteria are found in soil. Most common and important types in the aquarium are nitrosomonas and nitrobacter. These are vital in the active removal of ammonia and nitrite. Since they are aerobic, they require an adequate supply of oxygen passing over the colony, they also are supplied with their food source, ammonia and nitrite from the passing water. They require clean hard surfaces where they can anchor themselves and create active populations and colonies.
The above quote is from
http://shell.pubnix.net/~spond/glossary/glossary.html#lithot rophic
The last sentence states my point.

This topic has really bugged me, as many of you can tell. I have searched the internet and I have found many more websites than I have posted. I have yet to find one that has sided against me on this. Sorry to be such a pain in the rear. I just want a solid answer. I even e-mailed a professor from one of the websites.

Marcus, welcome back,

Okay so my conclusion on this.  First of all Marcus, Jon, and Carl you guys are all great!  Yes Carl even you .  They way I see it you are all making good points.  I'll do my best once again to give input, but this really isn't my field.  Marcus- I don't have a link off the top of my head, but trust me there is a ton of bacteria in the water and it does contain nitrifying bacteria.  I've read this and worked with people who study it.  However, Jon, the majority of the bacteria involved in the nitrifying process are in the substrate area.  Not all of that bacteria is attached to the surface of substrate but it is actually in the water down there in the sand (this is new research as of last year).  Because of this the idea of smaller particle size for the sand is now being disputed, and is the reason I don't support it.  The actual bacteria count appears to be the same REGARDLESS of the substrate size.  Picture this... in you sand you have tons of bacteria growing on the surface area of a piece of sand.  The bacteria grow and reproduce so much, that they can't all fit in on sand.  So they just start "hanging out" in those little teany water pockets.  Now if you stir up your sand you will get an ammonia spike.  Why?  Not because of the bacteria on the substrate, they won't do anything, but because of those little free floating bacteria which are now released into the water.  Many of them will die soon because they can't live in oxygenated water. 

So as Carl said, there are lots of good bacteria.  And there are lots of denitryfing bacteria.  Most of our filtration bacteria is in the sand, no doubt, but it is also everywhere in the tank.

I hope this makes sense.

Adam 

These things I agree with:

1. A lot of bacteria is found free floating in the water, but not even close to what is found on the surfaces in your aquarium (glass, substrate, filter pads, etc.)
2. Nitrification happens in the water column, but to a minor degreee compared to the nitrification happening in the substrate, filters, etc.

Thing I DISagree with:

1. Now the substrate WATER (NOT THE SUBSTRATE ITSELF) contains around 10x more than that.
• I disagree.  The majority of the bacteria found in the substrate is attached to the substrate not free floating in the water around the substrate.
• The number of organisms that can be maintained in a marine tank is usually proportional to the amount of surface area on the gravel of the aquarium available for the Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter bacteria to attach to (Marietta College, Water Science and Technology Volume 2002)
  
2. The actual bacteria count appears to be the same REGARDLESS of the substrate size. 
• If bacteria is more numerous on surface areas compared to free floating.  The more surface area provided for the bacteria the more bacteria you will have.  In other words the smaller the substrate grain size, the more surface area, the more bacteria.

 

My $0.02

I go away for a few days and look what I come back to
Seriously, I enjoyed reading and updating myself regarding the info and opinions posted. Seems to me that there is a lot of room for progress in the area of bacterial "filtration". Who knows what the future will be?

Adam,  do you know if that's bacteria ON the substrate or is that from a water sample drawn from within the substrate?

2000 times more is significant, isn't it?