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DaveB 
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 Posted: December 25 2006 at 2:43am |
What I do not need are heaters LMAO
Dave
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Suzy
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Posted: December 25 2006 at 8:43am |
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Well, living in the desert might make a difference!
I actually have to run 2 heaters now, to keep my temp at 72-74`! And, the floor is freezing down there!
I can't wait to see yours!
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: December 25 2006 at 9:30am |
 DaveB wrote:
adding all sorts of things in those KENT bottles... at one time, my Calicium level, when I learned what that meant and started doing proper testing was at 1200 LOL talk about scary... but that was a long time ago....
Thank you all, you have been very helpful.. |
 That's the kind of experience that makes me laugh along with you, long and loud and clear. (I love to laugh) Working at an LFS, has been a learning experience for me, finding the balance of selling product but also making sure the customer is better off for buying/using the product.
 And thank you for being such a great hobbyist to discuss all this. The next time I'm in St. George, I'll want to visit with you.
BTW, your fish room sounds like it's going to be like mine, actually it's my front room with three systems, five tanks, three of which are shallow fragging tanks. If I get married again, I might have to change that. (I was also born in '54)
Edited by Mark Peterson - December 25 2006 at 10:14am
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Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks:www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member 
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sshm
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Posted: December 25 2006 at 1:16pm |
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Neither Jon or I explained why keeping water tuned to ocean levels is meaningless. Perhaps Jon has a better reasoning, mine is fairly simple. I think blindly translating ocean parameters to the tank is not a good idea. If I view akalinity as a pH buffer then 2.5meq/l is not much of a buffer at all. A few ounces of vinegar will completely neutralize the pH in a home aquarium that has an alkalinity of 2.5meq/l, and the similarity with the ocean is blown out of the water. A higher alkalinity, i.e. around 3.5-4.0meq/l is certainly tolerated and is a better buffer against pH fluctuations.
Just my 2 yen to keep a stimulating discussion alive :-)
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DaveB
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Posted: December 25 2006 at 2:28pm |
That is exactly my thought on that too SSHM.... my PH is very stable, stays at 8.0 most of the time... I have tried to keep it higher, but that just seems impossible, so stable at 8.0 has to do, it is just not beneficial to try to keep it higher than 8.0. All that does is cause more fluctuation than leaving it at 8.0. One of the nicest tanks I have ever seen actually had a PH stable at 7.9. As usual, STABLE works out much better than trying to make it "perfect". Everything adjusts to anything within a certain range, and once all the life has become used to whatever the stable number is, it seems quite content... and you only have problems with things fluctuate to much.
Dave
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DaveB
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Posted: December 25 2006 at 2:45pm |
Mark, I worked in an LFS for a few months myself.... I remember clearly one day when a friend walked in, and was having PH problems... I started teaching him about baking soda, washing soda, vinegar, etc... and ways to dose those for ALK and PH stability... The ower walked over to me after my friend left with two bottles in his hand, He looked at me and held them up saying PH UP PH DOWN LMAO LMAO , my conscience got the better of me. $9.95 for an 12 oz bottle of PH Up was just not something I was about to sell to a friend.
My opinion on that from a business perspective is to not try to make money helping a customer stablize their system. I believe help them learn to do maintenance inexpensively, and then make my money selling fish and coral and foods and equipment... additives are not where I would need to make my profit..
Ethics is very important to me personally. I saw an LFS owner sell RODI water to customers while he knew his RODI unit was not functioning well, and his customers were leaving the store with TAP WATER testing at 150 plus on the TDS meter...... Sorry Charlie, I can't do things like that....
I would love to get a club going down here much like you all have up north, where sharing experience with each other only makes the hobby better, more fun, more succesful for all concerned.. Sure in many ways this is not what the LFS owners want to see down here... Hell, one LFS down here still sells undergravel filtration setups to people starting salt water tanks..
Of course, for some younger people who don't have the time or ability to read all the available information online, comprehend what they are reading, and put it to practical use is difficult. If they have to rely on an LFS that really doesn't care about anything but sales puts them in a very bad situation. They spend lots of money, and are never very happy, and end up leaving the hobby... I hate to see that happen.
Unfortunately, the learning curve for this hobby is pretty steep. But maybe before this New Year is over,, I can get a good club going down here. It would be great to have a group of people like all of you... Hell, I have even thought about moving north just to be able to participate more in your club... you guys have it together...
Dave
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Suzy
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Posted: December 25 2006 at 7:00pm |
DaveB wrote:
Hell, one LFS down here still sells undergravel filtration setups to people starting salt water tanks..
Dave |
I know a guy who is trying to bring back the UGF.....
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DaveB
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Posted: December 25 2006 at 7:47pm |
Well I personally saw this system which was setup with two Aquaclear500 hang on filters, a UGF on a 125 gallon reef system. After nothing but trouble they went to another LFS, who added a 35 gallon sump and an ASM G1 skimmer to their system. Which would have been great if it had more than 150 gallon per hour flow thru the sump and the skimmer was designed for more than a 50 gallon tank. I mean really, total water volume of 165 gallons and the LFS sold them a G1x skimmer. As far as I am concerned that is just one step above theft. Don't even get me started on the lighting they were sold. It would not even have been good for a freshwater tank...... After a year the people gave up. They had constant algae problems, no corals lived very long, and only the very hardiest of fish survived... by the time I met these people they were totally fried on the whole thing and just wanted to take what they could get for their setup and get out of the hobby.
Please don't get me wrong, I am not saying these things to rag on the LFS, but more to illustrate the need for hobbists to help one another such as you all do in your great club up north.
Dave
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sshm
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Posted: December 26 2006 at 6:45pm |
It could be that your high Mg is what's preventing large abiotic precipitation of calcium carbonate. When Mg is low, and if calcium and alkalinity are high (calcium and alk are already supersaturated at ocean levels) then calcium carbonate will precipitate out on the sand, heaters, insides of tubes, powerheads etc. This is like forming salt crystals by placing salt in a supersaturated solution of the salt, the salts in solution will precipitate out into the binding surfaces on the salt and the process continues since more and more binding surfaces become available. Mg competes with Ca for the binding spots and will bind to the carbonate ends of the calcium carbonate matrix and prevent further precipitation of calcium (since the carbonate ends are already taken up by Mg, the Ca has nowhere to bind to). If Mg is low, i.e. much below 1250ppm then there is an increased chance of CaCO3 precipitating out. Mark is certainly right that high Calcium/Alk is risky since the stability is at the knife's edge and it takes either a careful monitoring of levels, or chance (  ) to keep things in check. Therefore, this certainly should not be something that is attempted unless the risks are known and accounted.
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DaveB
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Posted: December 26 2006 at 8:16pm |
That seems very logical to me, and is probably why I am not having any real issues that seem to be common with high CA and ALK. Magnesium is something that I really only started testing for long after I started testing CA and ALK, and again from the very first test, my Mg levels have always been high also.
Based on all of this information, I think what I have decided to do is change salt mixes, finding one that is on the low side for CA and Mg, and very very gradually bring levels down that way..
When I finally get the new setup finished and ready to fill with water, I don't want to shock every coral in the system because of a drastic change in Ca and ALK levels in the new system. I would imagine that moving my coral into the new larger tank that has a difference in CA and ALK of 100 CA and 3 dkh ALK would be something coral would react badly to.
This entire discussion has probably saved me from having some sort of catastrophy at some point I am sure...
Thanks, Dave
Edited by DaveB - December 26 2006 at 8:18pm
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