Author |
Topic Search Topic Options
|
dianatabor
Guest
Joined: April 24 2003
Location: Layton, UT
Status: Offline
Points: 183
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Topic: Garlic and Fish again Posted: March 05 2004 at 12:03pm |
jfinch wrote:
Take a look at the ingredients on your garlic oil. I've never found one that listed garlic extract (or oil) as the first ingredient. They are mostly vegatable oil with a small amount of garlic oil (diallyl sulfides) mixed in. If anyone knows where to find an oil that is mostly garlic please tell. | FYI - The Kent Garlic Xtreme label states that it contains "99% Allium Sativum Extract [garlic juice]." That stuff is so strong that I only use a drop or two.
|
|
Mark Peterson
Paid Member
Joined: June 19 2002
Location: Murray
Status: Offline
Points: 21436
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: February 28 2004 at 9:23pm |
Ryan Willden wrote:
Before I started using Kyolic, I would lose at least one fish to Ich when it broke, but now whenever I change something on my tank, or add a new fish, I begin my regular regimen of feeding "Kyolic Enriched" foods, and it works every time. I'm sold for life! | I agree, using garlic seems to be revolutionizing the hobby, at least in the WMAS circle. We no longer have accept the statistical loss of every third new fish we add to our aquarium!
|
Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks:www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
|
|
Ryan Willden
Guest
Joined: July 12 2002
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 775
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: February 28 2004 at 5:37pm |
You betcha
|
|
Meeshi_ma
Guest
Joined: January 16 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 159
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: February 28 2004 at 5:04pm |
Thanks for all of the advice!!
Brian
|
|
Ryan Willden
Guest
Joined: July 12 2002
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 775
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: February 28 2004 at 5:01pm |
Meeshi_ma wrote:
Well, it wasn't an overnight thing | Yeah, kind of a bummer eh? I like instant gratification too... Oh well, at least it works.
|
|
Meeshi_ma
Guest
Joined: January 16 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 159
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: February 28 2004 at 4:14pm |
Well, it wasn't an overnight thing, but my tang is starting to look better on the kyolic "ice cubes". Seems to work for me!
|
|
Ryan Willden
Guest
Joined: July 12 2002
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 775
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: February 28 2004 at 4:07pm |
jfinch wrote:
Why is that some claim success using kyolic while others say it doesn't work you should use the oil extracts? Maybe both work? | All I know is my new Niger trigger was getting cloudy eyes, and I started soaking Krill in Kyolic for him to eat, and three days later, no more Parasites. I even "injected" some Kyolic into a few dead mollies with a needle syringe to feed to my lions, and the lions both look very healthy (after surviving tank cycling with live rock and sand.) Incidentally, I re-built my Refugium and sump last week, and I think moving all the Fuge sand from the old tank to the new tank caused a small Ammonia spike. A few of my fish were starting to get ich (Which hasn't presented itself in over a year in this tank) and I resumed feeding frozen, prepared food that had been soaked and frozen in Kyolic, and now only a few days later, they're all better. Now who can argue that kind of success. Before I started using Kyolic, I would lose at least one fish to Ich when it broke, but now whenever I change something on my tank, or add a new fish, I begin my regular regimen of feeding "Kyolic Enriched" foods, and it works every time. I'm sold for life!
Edited by Ryan Willden
|
|
chrisslc
Guest
Joined: November 13 2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 799
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: February 28 2004 at 2:02pm |
I'll say this for any type of garlic added to the food, when I feed my tank at least my wife says "uh.. garlic" instead of "EEeyyoouugHH... Fish Stink!!!"
|
Murray, Utah just north of the park. "It's all the same to the clam" -Shel Silverstein
|
|
jfinch
Guest
Joined: March 06 2003
Location: Pleasant Grove
Status: Offline
Points: 7067
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: February 28 2004 at 1:54pm |
As for being sure about any of this stuff, I'm not. I just tried to condense what I've found regarding the chemistry of why garlic might work as an antiparasitic food. I'd welcome any other ideas regarding why it works. Most people don't really care why something works as long as it does. I'm just more curious then most.
Why is that some claim success using kyolic while others say it doesn't work you should use the oil extracts? Maybe both work? Maybe fresh crushed garlic would work better? Maybe roasted garlic is better (hmmm, pasta)? Has anyone tried onion or cabbage? They also contain similar organosulfer compounds.
|
|
|
jfinch
Guest
Joined: March 06 2003
Location: Pleasant Grove
Status: Offline
Points: 7067
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: February 28 2004 at 1:31pm |
pyruvic acid. CH3COCO2H
|
|
|
Adam Blundell
Presidency
Joined: June 24 2002
Location: Davis County
Status: Offline
Points: 18526
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: February 28 2004 at 12:33pm |
What about pyrovic acid? Sure about that?
Adam
|
Come to a meeting, they’re fun!
|
|
jfinch
Guest
Joined: March 06 2003
Location: Pleasant Grove
Status: Offline
Points: 7067
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: February 28 2004 at 12:07pm |
No, I was suggesting that the active compound was allicin, not the enzyme allanase, although I have nothing other then the fact that allicin is a good antibiotic to make that judgement.
Alliin (reacting with allanase) -----> allicin (not a very stable compound)
allicin ---------> diallyl disulfide (and all the other organosulfur compounds)
To better understand, here's the chicken wire diagrams of the molecules:
Alliin:
Allicin:
Diallyl disulfide:
As for spelling, I'm terrible! I think I've spelled them correctly, unless you're in England then it's diallyl disulphide, not sulfide.
|
|
|
Adam Blundell
Presidency
Joined: June 24 2002
Location: Davis County
Status: Offline
Points: 18526
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: February 28 2004 at 9:23am |
Mark,
I bet there is a number, but I don't know it. If that number (or estimate) has been worked out, I'm sure a coworker of mine would know it. I'll ask sometime.
Adam
|
Come to a meeting, they’re fun!
|
|
Mark Peterson
Paid Member
Joined: June 19 2002
Location: Murray
Status: Offline
Points: 21436
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: February 28 2004 at 8:39am |
Allinase..those darn enzymes must be good for something! I have worked with folks from a company called Enzyme Biosystems and there are many other companies now looking even more into the value of these types of compounds, some of wich come as a byproduct of bacterial fermentation. Fermentation is the very thing we like to have happening in our aquariums! Adam, is there a count of the number of enzymes currently known to be working in the human body?
|
Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks:www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
|
|
Adam Blundell
Presidency
Joined: June 24 2002
Location: Davis County
Status: Offline
Points: 18526
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: February 28 2004 at 8:18am |
Jon,
I've never claimed to be a good splellerer . But could you check the spelling of some of those compounds for me. I'm not sure about those compounds, the intermediates, and the acid formations. Admittedly I haven't look into garlic compounds for a few years now.
Also, I was a much bigger fence sitter than you for years. Actually I was on the opposed to side of the fence. The early usage of garlic and the theories behind why it worked just didn't go over well with me. A lot of people said who cares why it works as long as is it works. But I wanted some reason that at least made sense. The recent ideas of Allinase being the active molecule do go over well with me. It was because of the recent thoughts behind it, that I started believing, and started this whole topic.
Adam
|
Come to a meeting, they’re fun!
|
|
Skyetone
Guest
Joined: January 09 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1612
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: February 28 2004 at 8:11am |
Skye you can post my thoughts on this subject-
Garlic has been shown to fight fungus, viral, bacterial issues. What manner of fighting it is is unclear to me--the long post on this page was quite scientific sounding-I cannot really get the chemical pathway info-what that guy said was good.
In the health field garlic is now being recognized by the cardiologists as a way to bring down blood pressure and cholesterol. How it works is not something I know. I think raw, oil in capsules, kyolic or any other kind will do the same thing. Even if people just eat it cooked it works seemingly.
The thing that makes people pick one garlic or the other is whether it will make them smell. People dont want to have bad odor and everthing but kyolic garlic will cause this. It is funny though that if 2 people eat food with garlic-they cannot smell each other afterword- but if one person eats it and then joins a crowd he and they can smell it on the person who ate it.
Go figure--but the vampire story didnt stick around this long cuz it was based on nothing. You cannot know if it is true unless the teeth are sinking into your neck--and then it is unlikely you will be telling the truth to anyone else LOL
|
I will just give my warning that your system will flood, bulbs will burn out, and things will take continuous maintenance... get over it.
Magna
|
|
chrisslc
Guest
Joined: November 13 2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 799
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: February 27 2004 at 6:02pm |
jfinch wrote:
(thanks for getting through this. Anyone have other thoughts?)
|
Who could possibly add to that!
Fantastic info Jon (if I'm spelling that wrong please PM correction). Not many that can take a subject and apply that much direct science to it.
Makes one wonder about the whole Garlic vs. Vampire thing. Obviously it's got highly antiparasitic qualities, and what's more parasitic than a nosferatu. Either someone in the Fiction genre must have been in on this science and been very creative, or the whole thing's true and the Cloves properties where discovered accidently in the ensuing bloodshed.
|
Murray, Utah just north of the park. "It's all the same to the clam" -Shel Silverstein
|
|
jfinch
Guest
Joined: March 06 2003
Location: Pleasant Grove
Status: Offline
Points: 7067
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: February 27 2004 at 2:54pm |
I'm still a fence sitter when it comes to garlic, but I'm slowly getting pushed over. My father-in-law called me about a month ago worried about one of his fish. He came home from work to find one of his fish covered in ick. My first suggestion was No-Ick, but then I remembered garlic. He had garlic pills in the house so he tried it. Next day everything's clear... he was surprised. I've tried it once. My flame angel had a couple white spots one evening just after I got him. I don't have garlic "supplements" in the house, but I've always got whole garlic cloves laying around. So I throw a clove in my press and squeeze it into my food cup. Mix in some brine shrimp and feed the tank. The angel is clean the next day. The infection wasn't bad and could have cleared up on it's own (why I'm still on the fence). So I start searching around on the chemistry of garlic to find reasons why it might work. Here's my thoughts on it.
GARLIC CHEMISTRY: Garlic has two sulfur rich compounds naturally occuring in the clove. Alliin, an amino acid, is found throughout the plant cell inner matterial. Allinase is a protein enzyme found in the cell wall. Normally these two don't see each other. When you crush a clove of garlic (or cut it or do anything to break the cell walls) the alliin and allinase react together very quickly to form allicin, pyrovic acid and ammonia. Allicin (and to a lesser extent, pyrovic acid) is what gives fresh garlic it's smell. Allicin is also very short lived (especially when heated) and reacts with it's self and other "sulfur compounds" to form diallyl disulfide, diallyl trisulfide, s-allyl cysteine, s-allylmercaptocysteine and other "stinky stuff". The sulfides are oil soluble (and smell like garlic) while the cysteines are water soluble (and have no smell).
Allicin is a fairly strong antibiotic. It's 1/50 the strength of penicilin and 1/10 the strength of tetracycline. It's also a good antifungal, antiviral and antiparasite compound. This is why garlic was used way way back in the greek empire times as a healing sauve for wounds. Unfortunately, as mentioned above, it's a very unstable compound and is really only present in fresh, unprocessed garlic.
The byproducts of allicin, listed above, are also reported to have antibiotic properties, although much less potent then allicin. Less real science is known when it comes to these compounds. Everything I could find was put out by someone selling one of the products and wanting to bad mouth the other and praise themselves. You can find a study to support almost any position. Kyolic is a mix of the cysteine (water soluble) compounds while the garlic liquid oil extracts are almost all diallyl sulfides.
Take a look at the ingredients on your galic oil. I've never found one that listed garlic extract (or oil) as the first ingredient. They are mostly vegatable oil with a small amount of garlic oil (diallyl sulfides) mixed in. If anyone knows where to find an oil that is mostly garlic please tell.
SUMMARY (jeez, I'm so wordy I needed a summary) I would suggest that it's the allicin that possesses the greatest possibility as an anti-ick fighter. I don't really like the idea of adding vegatable oil to my tank so I will press a bunch of fresh garlic into a container and let it sit for a couple days before mixing it into my food and then freezing. After a few days I should have a good mix of both sulfides and cysteines (and even a small amount of unreacted allicin). Just my thoughts.
(thanks for getting through this. Anyone have other thoughts?)
Edited by jfinch
|
|
|
Ryan Willden
Guest
Joined: July 12 2002
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 775
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: February 27 2004 at 10:58am |
That's my stand as well. I've never tried anything but the liquid form because, come on now... Who wants to press Genuine Garlic Cloves for a few drops of Pure Garlic??? It's much easier to buy it in the form I use it in.
|
|
Adam Blundell
Presidency
Joined: June 24 2002
Location: Davis County
Status: Offline
Points: 18526
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: February 27 2004 at 8:42am |
|
Come to a meeting, they’re fun!
|
|