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sjlopez39 
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 Topic: Nitrate’s high and stuff are dying.
Posted: March 19 2003 at 10:23pm |
Jkelson and mrkelson- I actually didn't suggest that you add more bio wheels. I think the ones you have are plenty and mabe too much according to jfinches point in regards to bio wheels accumulating nitrates.
The message I was trying to relay is that the use of power heads as a means of water circulation in your tank would be a good idea. I suggested this because you had asked if the filter with the bio wheels would create enough water movement.
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Keep your hands and arms inside the tank and enjoy the ride!
Steve
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jfinch
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Posted: March 19 2003 at 4:38pm |
Quote: Originally posted by Mark Peterson on 19 March 2003
I assumed Rick was speaking of a long term process that no hobbyist would ever notice.
Amino Acids? I would like to know how it all works and fits together so that we can be sure we are making use of the best filtration methods or to come up with better.
I agree that a skimmer takes out the organics before bacteria can get to them. SPS coral does best with good skimming. So what does that say about the use of biological filtration without skimming and its effect on SPS?
All plant and animal life has proteins in the mix (nitrogen is found in DNA, ATP, complex proteins).
I'm not sure what you're getting at regarding SPS w/o skimmer. I'm really not sure why SPS corals do better with good skimming. They used to be a very difficult coral to keep, but now they're almost run of the mill. Maybe SPS success has more to do with low nitrates then anything else?
How long has Bird World's display tank been operated using the Biolife (or whatever it's called) refugium system? I'd call that a successful SPS/mixed tank without any skimming.
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: March 19 2003 at 3:32pm |
I assumed Rick was speaking of a long term process that no hobbyist would ever notice.
Amino Acids? I would like to know how it all works and fits together so that we can be sure we are making use of the best filtration methods or to come up with better.
I agree that a skimmer takes out the organics before bacteria can get to them. SPS coral does best with good skimming. So what does that say about the use of biological filtration without skimming and its effect on SPS?
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jfinch
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Posted: March 19 2003 at 3:14pm |
Quote: Originally posted by Mark Peterson on 19 March 2003
Rick Greenfield, owner of CaribSea and a Ph.D Scientist of some sort himself, always used to talk of the acidic condition within the substrate which contributed to the dissolving of his product. This process is what made using his product so beneficial because it released calcium and the other minerals from the aragonite into the water for use as buffer and coral builing material. Nobody could refute his claim because we didn't know enough about it ourselves! He claimed that eventually a person would have to add more substrate to replace that which dissolved.
Jon, Why would decaying algae create an ammonia spike? I always thought of it as leading to an increase of organic material bonded to phosphate, carbon and perhaps nitrates too. I'm in the dark here. Help!
I've heard that about dissolving CaCO3 too, but I've never heard of anyone actually having to add more substrate, have you? If it were true, there would not be any H+ left for denitrification (back to adams statement). The H+ is made in the nitrification process.
Re: decaying plants; Just what I've heard, not experienced. Wouldn't the amino acids (nucleaic acids) in the algae decompose to NH3?
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: March 19 2003 at 2:57pm |
Rick Greenfield, owner of CaribSea and a Ph.D Scientist of some sort himself, always used to talk of the acidic condition within the substrate which contributed to the dissolving of his product. This process is what made using his product so beneficial because it released calcium and the other minerals from the aragonite into the water for use as buffer and coral builing material. Nobody could refute his claim because we didn't know enough about it ourselves! He claimed that eventually a person would have to add more substrate to replace that which dissolved.
Jon, Why would decaying algae create an ammonia spike? I always thought of it as leading to an increase of organic material bonded to phosphate, carbon and perhaps nitrates too. I'm in the dark here. Help!
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jfinch
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Posted: March 19 2003 at 2:36pm |
Quote: Originally posted by Adam Blundell on 19 March 2003
And, did anyone else notice in Mark's equation the 24H+
That is pretty darn acidic to have happen in an aquarium. Hence a main reason many people don't worry about denitrification, and the ability to convert NO3 in reef aquariums. Once you can handle that part of the equation, then try dealing with the dillema of "where do the sugars come from?"
Adam
Well, if the nitrificaiton and denitrification are happening near enough to each other (in the live rock or DSB), then the H+ produced from the nitrification process are consumed in the denitrification process with no net increase/decrease in H+. As to where the carbs come from, I've always assumed they were in the water column...it's the same source of carbs that the nitrification bacteria used.
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rfoote
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Posted: March 19 2003 at 2:27pm |
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Mark - ispf.com - I wouldn't mind going in with you. This is something I want to do, I'm just not ready for it yet. Might be a month or two. Trying to decide if I want to add a refugium to my system.
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jfinch
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Posted: March 19 2003 at 2:20pm |
Quote: Originally posted by Jake Pehrson on 19 March 2003
Also it is my opinion that macro algae reproducing sexually in the aquarium is good and not bad. How many people have had a problem with macro algae sprouting up out of nowhere and tanking over your tank?
Doesn't the decaying algae cause an ammonia spike?
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jfinch
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Posted: March 19 2003 at 2:18pm |
Quote: Originally posted by Mark Peterson on 19 March 2003
It is my understanding that soon after fish waste hits the water it chemically converts to ammonia/ammonium. In the presense of oxygen, billions of bacteria in the water and on surfaces like glass and rock exposed to oxygenated water consume the ammonia/ammonium as food, converting it to nitrate. Here are chemical equations for:
NITRIFICATION (Ammonia & Nitrite to Nitrate) (???)
NH4+ + 2O2 ® NO3 + H2O +2H+
DENITRIFICATION: (Nitrate to gas & water)
5C6H12O6 + 24NO3- + 24H+ ® 30CO2 + 12N2 + 42H2O
This info is courtesy of CaribSea. They published an extensive reference sheet years ago that I have recently converted to an electronic file in MS Word format. It is very informative about a number of topics. If interested, email your request and I will reply with the draft copy.
You may notice that contrary to being a reverse process as was suggested in one of the posts above, bacteria in a low oxygen environment consume sugar and nitrate to obtain energy and the waste is carbon dioxide, nitrogen and water.
The reason why I prefer to use a protein skimmer is to remove the organics before they have a chance to decompose to NH3/NH4+.
I should be more careful how I explain things (in regards to the reaction being reversed). I come from a chemistry (engineering) background and yes the nitrogen cycle (as far as the nitrogen molecule is concerned) is going back and forth in an oxydation/reduction reaction.
Ammonia --> Nitrate (oxydation)
Nitrate --> Nitrogen/Ammonia (reduction)
The same "type" of reactions also take place in an aquarium with regard to sulfur.
Decaying biomatter --> H2S --> S04 (oxydation)
S04 --> H2S (reduction)
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: March 19 2003 at 11:27am |
I just remembered a place in Hawaii that describes some awesome products for the person that wants micro-faunal and macro-algal diversity. It's called Indo Pacific Sea Farms www.ipsf.com I may be interested in going half with someone. The 9 items for $99 might be a good deal. Does anyone have experience with this company?
Hawaiian MacroAlgae 6-Pack Special. Add color, motion and serious Nitrogen processing capacity to your tank, refugium or sump with our unique Ornamental MacroAlgae Assortment. Includes starter cultures of 6 great looking species commonly found on Indo-Pacific coral reefs. You get Tang Heaven Red (Gracilaria parvispora), Tang Heaven Green (Ulva sp.), Tang Heaven Gold (Gracilaria sp.), Feathery Caulerpa (C. sertularioides, 2 types - Long and Short) and Halimeda (Halimeda sp.). All species are captive bred at our Kona facility. $49.95 with any order ($59.95 if ordered alone). Now shipping. color=#0000ffOrder
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Jake Pehrson
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Posted: March 19 2003 at 10:43am |
Jon,
Bio-wheels will not reduce nitrate in your aquarium.
Also it is my opinion that macro algae reproducing sexually in the aquarium is good and not bad. How many people have had a problem with macro algae sprouting up out of nowhere and tanking over your tank?
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Adam Blundell
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Posted: March 19 2003 at 10:18am |
Great message Mark!!!
Lots of places to get macro algae and seagrass (but seagrass deosn't usually do well in an aquarium). My favorite places for algae are Fish 4 U, Inland Aquatics, DiverTom.com. And I completely agree that the more species of algae, the better.
And, did anyone else notice in Mark's equation the 24H+
That is pretty darn acidic to have happen in an aquarium. Hence a main reason many people don't worry about denitrification, and the ability to convert NO3 in reef aquariums. Once you can handle that part of the equation, then try dealing with the dillema of "where do the sugars come from?"
Adam
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: March 19 2003 at 9:15am |
It is my understanding that soon after fish waste hits the water it chemically converts to ammonia/ammonium. In the presense of oxygen, billions of bacteria in the water and on surfaces like glass and rock exposed to oxygenated water consume the ammonia/ammonium as food, converting it to nitrate. Here are chemical equations for:
NITRIFICATION (Ammonia & Nitrite to Nitrate) (???)
NH4+ + 2O2 ® NO3 + H2O +2H+
DENITRIFICATION: (Nitrate to gas & water)
5C6H12O6 + 24NO3- + 24H+ ® 30CO2 + 12N2 + 42H2O
This info is courtesy of CaribSea. They published an extensive reference sheet years ago that I have recently converted to an electronic file in MS Word format. It is very informative about a number of topics. If interested, email your request and I will reply with the draft copy.
You may notice that contrary to being a reverse process as was suggested in one of the posts above, bacteria in a low oxygen environment consume sugar and nitrate to obtain energy and the waste is carbon dioxide, nitrogen and water.
To answer the question of Caulerpa going "sexual." For some reason, that I have not been able to figure out I have seen Caulerpa start to dissolve. It starts with one stem and within 8 hours to two days it can be all gone. The dissolving away returns previously held nutrients back to the system which, depending on the amount of Caulerpa, can cause some real problems. Eng believes that his EcoReef 24 hour lighted sump of Caulerpa never dissolves, but I doubt this is true. I have two recommendations:
1) keep the caulerpa cut back to 1/3 the volume of the sump. When it reaches 1/2 it's time to harvest. One reason for the dissolving crash may be that the nutrient level falls to where the Caulerpa does not have enough food and so it chooses to die and send out babies to find a place where nutrients are available. If you let the Caulerpa fill the sump so that there is a lot of demand for food and then slow the feeding (fish food) a crash may occur.
2) Obtain other types of algae. Grape caulerpa is the hardiest and best growing for most aquariums and usually overtakes everything else. Keep the Grape Caulerpa cut way back. Encourage the growth of other Caulerpas and add red algae, brown sargassum(from fiji live rock) and other types of algae to your sump or tank. If anyone has suggestions of where to obtain more varieties of algae, please let us know. Sea Grasses would be fun to grow!
Mark [email protected] "thinking outside the box"
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jfinch
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Posted: March 19 2003 at 7:55am |
Somebody needs to explain to me how adding a biowheel will help reduce nitrates. Biowheels make nitrates, there is no way denitrification can occur in/on a biowheel. If you have any detectable ammonia or nitrite then a biowheel will help (I'd still suggest a good protein skimmer, more live rock, or a well planted refugium).
If nitrates are really the problem you need nitrate export either through denitrification (which I think happens inside your live rock and perhaps in a DSB), plant growth (refugium and perhaps corals) or water changes.
Has anyone here ever experienced their macro's going sexual in their refugium? What were the consequences? Does keeping the lights on 24 hrs per day keep this from happening?
always the skeptic...
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jkelson
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Posted: March 18 2003 at 10:37pm |
Adam, this just makes it all the more exciting to come to next months meeting. I have news to update on my tank. I have added approx 30 lbs of live rock, gotten rid of the anenomes & re-arranged my corals. I have had a little success on the nitrate for at least a week & my corals are thriving. I have also solidified myself to my regular water changes, and ......whala! A very happy tank indeed. sjlopez 39, I will look into adding another biowheel also. THANKS. 
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Adam Blundell
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Posted: March 13 2003 at 9:02am |
rfoote and the rest,
One more point. I think large sand like crushed coral, at about 4" deep is perfect!!!! I think this is better than small sand!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thousands of aquariums set up like this are working wonderfully. If I were you I wouldn't just go around pulling sand out, or throwing sand in. Just let it be, and all will be well.
Adam
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sjlopez39
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Posted: March 13 2003 at 6:23am |
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I can't remenber which Thu has for sure. I think it's a reverse daylight.
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Keep your hands and arms inside the tank and enjoy the ride!
Steve
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rfoote
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Posted: March 13 2003 at 5:28am |
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sjlopez - thanks for the info - I'll check it out. I have a sump under my tank - I am considering adding a refugium in the basement under the tank. Is this what he has?
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sjlopez39
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Posted: March 13 2003 at 1:15am |
rfoote- You mentioned in an earlier post that you were considering adding a sump to your tank and that the sump would be down stairs. I recommend taking a look at Thu Phans aquarium or atleast talking to him. He has this very setup. Moreover it's a good excuse to see his beautiful tank.
I haven't recognized his name on the forum but his e-mail address should be on the club list.
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Keep your hands and arms inside the tank and enjoy the ride!
Steve
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sjlopez39
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Posted: March 13 2003 at 1:08am |
mrkelson- I'm not sure why your aquatic pets are dying. I was wondering if the dual biowheel filter is the only source of water movement in the tank? If so I would recomend a couple of power heads strategically placed.
I use a method that Richard Brown (owner of corals and clams) recommends in his instructions for setting up a plenum. I placed one power head on one side of the tank towards the top so that it creates a ripple across the top of the water. I place another power head on the opposite side of the tank towards the bottom. The two power head are pointed at each others side of the tank so that the water movement is not moving in a direction like that of a race track. The power head that is on top I turn sideways so I can adjust the angle up and down to create the ripple of choice on the top of the water.
I recommend maxijets, mine are 900s. They create a water motion that rocks.
Our set ups are nearly the same. My tank is a 72 gal. I have an Emporer dual bio wheel filter, however I removed the bio wheels after a couple of years of operation. Of course as I already mentioned I use the 2 maxijet 900s.
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Keep your hands and arms inside the tank and enjoy the ride!
Steve
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