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vadryn 
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 Topic: Going simple with a Large Tank?
Posted: November 13 2009 at 4:43pm |
Let me set the table, and then post the questions on my mind.
April 1, I put water in my 90g tank that I converted from FW to SW. That was my first and since then, my only experience with SW. The 90g is a standalone with no sump or fuge. I have about 6" of Utah sand, plenum, and approx. 150# of LR. My lights are 4 x 96w PC. I started with, and top off with, tap water. I did my first water change this week, so about 7 months with out a water change.
My tank settled in after the initial cycle and has been solid ever since. My measurements have been extremely consistent, my livestock has done quite well, IMO, corals and fish alike. I'm keeping a Kole Tang, Blue Hippo Tang, Tomato Clowns (pair), Red Firefish, Purple Firefish, Bengaii Cardinal, Sixline Wrasse, Blue Flasher Wrasse, Lawnmower Blenny, Bluespot Jawfish, as well as a Longspine Urchin and the usual suspects in a cleanup crew.
I know that by SW standards my tank is still young. To be honest, I have been a bit surprised at how well this has gone. Without having a Protien Skimmer, UV, Dosing of any kind, RO Water, T5 or MH lights, Refugium... It's re-raised the questions about how much of this stuff is "needed" to keep a good SW tank as long as you have good LR, LS and flow.
I have had the conversion of my 225g tank to SW in the back of my mind, but have been scared off mostly by the anticipated expense. $600 - $1000 for lights, $300 for a skimmer, Salt for regular water changes, dosing systems... etc etc. So here's the questions.
If I convert my 225 to SW, can I expect good success with regards to the health and stability of the tank if I follow the basic model of lots of LR, Sand and great flow? The bigger tank would automatically mean a refugium with macro algae etc, but does simple still work for a large tank like it does for my 90g?
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john hill
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Posted: November 13 2009 at 5:11pm |
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i think that you are going to have to up the water changes on your 90 for now it is doing great but as time goes no crap starts to build up and them on comes the problems even with the big skimmers and reufgems and all that jazz you still cant keep adding food and not taking out waste
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out with the large and in with the nano
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Jeffs_little_ocean
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Posted: November 13 2009 at 6:12pm |
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I love to read posts about people who are successful with simple tanks without all the bells and whistles that we all think we need but probably dont. I say set up the 225 just like you did the 90.
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BobC63
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Posted: November 13 2009 at 8:11pm |
You can certainly duplicate your 90g on a larger scale and be successful while keeping it "simple". I think your grasp of the concepts of the need for LS / LR and good flow will go a long way.
Your choice of corals will probably dictate expenses on things like lighting, skimmer (or not) more than fish will. In any event, even if you were to "upgrade" to say, halide lighting, you don't need to spend $1000 on lights. I bought my (2) 400w setups used, here on the Board, for around $300 total. If you don't feel the need to have high light demanding corals like SPS you could drop down to a pair of 250w lights with decent reflectors and ballasts and find that for sale here on the board for (I'd guess) around $200 - $225. IMO 250s would be just fine for any soft corals, zoas, etc. and probably most LPS corals as well.
Ksl.com has a great "fish" classifieds section as well.
Things like Korallia or Maxijet pumps go up on the board here all the time; usually around half of the cost of new. Same goes for heaters, rock and sand, etc.
I'll go on record as saying that, depending on what you want to keep as far as sensitive livestock goes, you could do it both skimmerless and sumpless and still have a great looking setup...
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- My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) -
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thefu
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Posted: November 13 2009 at 8:55pm |
I think John Hill's point about waste build up should be considered. I know that there is a ton of detritus that can build up in a tank regardless of how good your CUC is. Also I think their are a lot of things that fish and soft corals are tolerant of that SPS and other sensitive species would not be.
I am sure both your existing 90 and your proposed 225 would do fine without a skimmer or other fancy stuff with the right livestock choices, but I think its about balancing risk. Your chances are better IMO with and RDP refugium with macro, a skimmer, a controller, etc.
Can your car run just fine on 3 quarts of oil...sure, but don't go up hills, run the engine hard, or burn even a little bit of that oil or you will be in big trouble, and in the long run your engine life decreases from extra heat, etc....in other words, less margin of error and longevity even though the car seems to operate just fine.
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sanddune600
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Posted: November 13 2009 at 9:02pm |
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I think most of your success is flow the more flow going everywhere the less crap settles in the sand and the better food ect stays in the water colum the longer fish have a chance to eat it and having cheato in a sump is a great way to remove waste especially metal and other things from tap water
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Andy Jorgensen
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thefu
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Posted: November 13 2009 at 9:05pm |
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Can you post pics of the 90? What kind of corals do you have in it? What are you using for flow?
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cl2ysta1
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Posted: November 13 2009 at 9:28pm |
 john hill wrote:
i think that you are going to have to up the water changes on your 90 for now it is doing great but as time goes no crap starts to build up and them on comes the problems even with the big skimmers and reufgems and all that jazz you still cant keep adding food and not taking out waste |
i agree. Its just a matter of time before you start crashing waiting 7 months in between water changes with no skimmer plain and simple. Especially if you plan on keeping more fish and corals other than softies. Everyone likes to say how well their tanks are doing and they dont do water changes.... but somehow they never brag about it after the crash
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I <3 Boxers
Achilles tang lover
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john hill
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Posted: November 14 2009 at 12:10am |
here is a better way of saying would you like living in a tank with on filtration no water change swimming in your own crap
i would not
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out with the large and in with the nano
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bfessler
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Posted: November 14 2009 at 1:47am |
There are many different ways to have a successful reef. I was told that the systems I use wouldn't work and that I would be putting my livestock at risk if I tried using the Hiatt System. I researched the system as well as what the livestock I planned to keep required for optimum health. Then I made sure I could test and verify that the parameters I needed to maintain were actually being met and made backup plans in case things didn't work out.
Do you need a protein skimmer, plenum, MH Lights, a sump, refugium,..., maybe, maybe not but you do need to plan for how your are going to deal with waste, lighting, flow, and water quality so that the animals you care for have their needs met.
When I plan out a system I get input from everyone I can then decide how I am going to proceed. Those who have been in the hobby for a while are a great source of information and are happy to help and advise but not everyone with a successful tank does things the same way. Once you decide on a course of action monitor it closely to make sure your system is performing within your goals. Ask yourself in advance if something goes wrong how will I deal with it. Go slow stocking the tank and monitor it for changes as you change the bio-load.
If you plan well and have contingency plans for things that could go wrong, then put in the time to properly maintain the system you should be fine. You may find that some methods and equipment mean less maintenance and time you have to spend on the tank. Simplicity and stability were major goals of mine when I set up my tanks and they have paid off well for me. Because I am away from my tanks for days at a time I decided not to go with a sump or refugium that might flood my house when I was away and opted for all in one designs. Automation was also important for water top off and feeding. While my tanks are still young compared to many, the plans I have made have worked well. There have been a few modifications to the original plan and a few close calls but overall things have gone smoothly and I learned from the mistakes and make corrections as needed.
Bottom line is if you plan properly you can have a large tank without much of the expensive equipment that some use. It may mean more maintenance and trade offs in what livestock and coral you keep but you can have a beautiful yet simple tank if you plan properly and then follow through with proper maintenance.
Edited by bfessler - November 14 2009 at 1:51am
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Burt
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: November 14 2009 at 9:22am |
john hill wrote:
here is a better way of saying would you like living in a tank with on filtration no water change swimming in your own crap
i would not |
What is filtration if it's not the circle of life in our little ecosystems. The natural reduction of N and S compounds in LS and LR is at least 70% of the filtration of a successful reef aquarium. I believe that the other 30% is handled by algae growth on all surfaces and in the LW.
Vadryn's experience with his simple reef is not unique. He seems to have the right setup for success. We all agree that more water is better so how could a larger tank set up simply be any different.
If he does decide to enjoy the benefits of an RDP Refugium, taking all safety precautions into mind, he will have even more fun with the increase in diversity growing in his upgraded tank.
Water changes are over-rated. I have been telling this to WMAS hobbyists forever, though I wouldn't recommend going more than 6 months between water changes in a 90. I would assume Vadryn has been using AC. 
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vadryn
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Posted: November 14 2009 at 9:50am |
There were a few questions scattered amongst the repsponses - so let me elaboratea bit.
I am running AC - need up refresh it, actually, but I have been running about 4#.
I have a Fluval FX5 and 405 canister running (no media, just AC). That's 900 GPH flow and then I have a Koralia 4 and a Maxijet 1200 (mod) in there giving me quite a bit more. I estimated somewhere around 25x flow.
I don't have anything against water changes. I'm running an FX5 canister which I have confirmed makes removing and adding water very easy. I don't like that all the coraline above the waterline on my water change turned white.
My corals are 95% softies and will probably remain as such. Xenia, Mushrooms, Palys etc. I have a Plate Coral and a small CandyCane, so it isn't all softies, but mostly. Corals will be less of a feature in the 225 as I am interested in doing Lionfish, Triggers, Large Tangs etc. More of a FOWLR tank... but with "some" corals.
The 225g currently is FW and has a sump. I will defintely use that and in fact, want to expand the sump to have an external refugium to grow mangrove as a houseplant to the side of the tank.
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thefu
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Posted: November 14 2009 at 10:13am |
Mark, I would be interested in seeing a 50%+ SPS tank run under the conditions above because I have never seen a successful SPS tank run like that.
This is why I think it is so important to understand the livestock needs. Soft corals will thrive in a dirtier environment. Nothing against them, its just that they are much more tolerant and even need the extra crap in the water. When my tank became more clean and more fit for SPS, the result was less soft corals (xenia, anthelia, etc.), they did not like it and withered away.
I think you will be fine with the reduced mechanical filtration and skimming but I think you will not be fine with 6+month intervals on water changes eventually. Another aspect that the water changes help with is bumping up the elements so you don't have to dose as much or at all.
Everyone is different in what they like. If you stick to the same livestock set up for the 225 and up the water changes I think it will be fine long term.
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bfessler
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Posted: November 14 2009 at 10:56am |
Hi Terrance,
I'm starting to think there are ways of growing SPS in tanks without skimmers and other expensive equipment. When I got into the hobby I read about recommendations for heavy skimming, low nutrients and so on to be successful with SPS. I am beginning to find out that adequate light and flow are more important than the amount of nutrients you can skim from the tank.
I stocked my Nano with mostly LPS and Softies as a result but have been adding SPS recently to see how they do. So far I have added Millipora, Monticap, and Birdnest SPS to my Nano which has no skimmer, fuge, or sump. I haven't even been running AC regularly but my LPS have all done fine and appear to me to be growing rapidly.
I think that Flow may be the most important part of the equation as was suggested at Reef Fest. Even if the water parameters are a little high if the flow is sufficient for the respiration of the coral allowing them to export waste and import nutrition the coral seem to do well.
I am able to support and get good growth of Xenia, Clove Polyps, Kenya Trees, Star Polyps, Button Polyps, Mushrooms, Zoos, Euphilia Monticap, Millipora, Birdnest, acans, leather and candy canes all in the same 28G Nano without a skimmer sump or fuge. I recently moved most of my Xenia to the clown tank to make more room for SPS but the Xenia were thriving in my mixed tank along with SPS and PC lighting.
I'm planning on picking up some acropora today to add to the mix.
Edited by bfessler - November 14 2009 at 10:57am
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: November 14 2009 at 11:07am |
Yes, the hobbyist that wants to keep mostly SPS definitely ought to invest in a skimmer, but in my experience, most hobbyists are not like that.
Here you go Terrence:
No skimmer, no Ca Reactor, no controller, frag tank connected to main tank and ~50% SPS
Connected to the RDP Refugium, 2-3 mo wc's, gallons of supplements added regularly
Edited by Mark Peterson - November 14 2009 at 11:23am
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dew2loud1
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Posted: November 14 2009 at 12:09pm |
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There are obviously many approaches to handling tanks of all sizes,
What this discussion is clearly missing are solid numbers, what are your nitrates, phosphates etc,?
You can run a skimmerless system with no reactors etc, and keep
nitrates below 20 and phosphates fairly low if you have a decent
mechanism for export and a low feeding regime,
On the opposite end i've seen people running zeo and crazy amounts of
equipment who struggle with keeping nitrates below 60 because of
terrible feeding practices.
Also from the most recent study out skimmers remove 10-18% of dissolved
organics, activated carbon however removes over 80% so running 4lb of
carbon creates a much lower nutrient environment than a $500 skimmer,
its just very expensive to continually replace especially on a big tank.
As far as water changes, your goal is to dilute accumulating nitrates and add supplementation of important ions, ca mg etc
If low levels of nitrates are accumulating and you are dosing
supplements/and or your demand is very low you can easily go many
months without water changes. Next time do a couple tests and see
where your levels are prior to a water change and after.
For our tanks we feed very heavy and have a lot of bioload so large
nutrient exports (extremely large skimmer, refugium, water changes) are
very necessary in our system, but maybe not in yours.
For most hobbyists especially with smaller tanks i feel telling them to
not do water changes for several months is not good advise. If
they are doing this they should be monitoring levels important to their
system.
For most new hobbyists and those with smaller tanks its just easier to do a 10-20 gallon water change a couple times a month.
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bfessler
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Posted: November 14 2009 at 12:28pm |
Here are my current numbers for my Nano 28G 8 months old.
Hiatt System of nutrient export.
No sump, Skimmer, Refugium
Auto Feeder Daily
105 watts CF lighting
Auto Top Off using Kalkwasser in RODI Water
Water Changes 5 G Monthly.
Vida Rock LR Substitute.
3" DSB
Mixed Reef
Lightly dose AquaVitro Fuel and Vibrance
Fish 2 Cinnimon Clowns, 2 Green Cromis, 1 Lubbock Wrasse
Cleaner Shrimp and emerald crab in addition to basic clean up crew of snails and hermits.
Salinity 1.024
PH 8.4
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0 Nitrate2.5
Calcium 450
Magnesium 1320
Phosphate .5
Todays Picture
This is by no means a large tank but results should be duplicatable
Edited by bfessler - November 14 2009 at 12:36pm
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Burt
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thefu
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Posted: November 14 2009 at 12:51pm |
Mark, I have no idea what that first pic is supposed to mean, but it looks nothing like any frag tank or display tank I have ever seen. What is all that stuff between the frags? The second tank has an RDP and 2-3x as frequent water changes as what he is describing and it does not exactly seem to be SPS heavy and it seems to have a hardier species like Bali green slimer from what I can tell.
Burts tank is working well because he is getting rid of nutrients by 20-25% water changes monthly as well as AC.
My point still is that of Dew2loud1 which is its about nutrient export and the ability of the species in the tank to survive in higher nutrients and dirtier water. Also, I think that while it CAN be done raising SPS in an environment like this, it is just riskier.
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bfessler
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Posted: November 14 2009 at 4:07pm |
I think the whole point of vardyn's post's are to find out if it is possible to have a beautiful tank at a minimum expense. The answer is yes. You don't have to have all the latest gadgets, bells and whistles on your tank to make it work if you are willing to put the extra effort into maintaining and monitoring the tank. In other words just because a hobbyist doesn't have the finances to put in the latest equipment will not prevent him from succeeding. It will take more work, more research and he will have to develop the skills to tell what is going on in the tank without the use of that equipment.
The cost of setting up a reef is what kept me form setting one up years ago. With what has been learned about the hobby over the years it is now fairly simple to set up a FOWLR Tank only slightly more difficult to set up a reef with softies and some LPS and as a hobbyist gains experience they can even keep SPS in a fairly low tech tank.
There's no doubt that the extra equipment makes maintaining water quality and stability easier, safer, and extend control to the hobbyist even when they are not at their tank but prospective hobbyists don't have to shy away from the hobby for because of the cost. I think that those who are able to successfully maintain low teck tanks should be accepted and encouraged to share their experience as it may help bring others into the hobby that would not have otherwise tried it.
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Burt
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thefu
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Posted: November 14 2009 at 4:53pm |
bfessler wrote:
I think the whole point of vardyn's post's are to find out if it is possible to have a beautiful tank at a minimum expense. ...
There's no doubt that the extra equipment makes maintaining water quality and stability easier, safer, and extend control to the hobbyist even when they are not at their tank but prospective hobbyists don't have to shy away from the hobby for because of the cost. I think that those who are able to successfully maintain low teck tanks should be accepted and encouraged to share their experience as it may help bring others into the hobby that would not have otherwise tried it. |
You are spot on, but it is always good to know what someone's definition of beautiful is and their expectations. If someone's definition is a RC SPS TOTM, then I don't think this methodology is going to work long term.
Secondly, I think that if more people could lessen their risk a bit by not trying to push the envelope, then there would be less turnover in the hobby due to less tank crashes. I think the car analogy I made above best illustrates what I mean.
Now Vadryn, get that 225 rockin' and lets see it!
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