?Refugium?

A tank according to shawn would consist of a plenum with 3-4" of carribsea reef-floor special grade sand, a mix of tongan/fiji/(maybe) atlantic live rock, a berlin style sump with a skimmer, a big UV sterilizer and a canister filled with a mix of zeolite and activated carbon.  I think he's a bit flexible on the plenum vs. dsb aspect... either is ok, but he prefers a plenum.  I think he would say the most important piece of filtering equipment is a UV.  He's a big time UV fan.  His opinion on macro algae refugium is that the pH benefits of RDP are overblown and the hassles of keeping it going are not worth the benefits.

If you've not seen his store's display tank you should, it's the best looking LFS tank in the state, imo.  It just goes to show that there are more then one way to keep a reef tank.

Back to the orginal question...
Every reef tank needs a "filtration" method to remove/eliminate nitrogen and phosphorous wastes from the water column.  Nitrogen can be removed by denitrification occuring in a dsb or within live rock with the nitrogen gas produced just degassing out of the aquarium and into the atmosphere.  It can also be incorporated in algae growth and then removed from the system by harvesting the algae.  Protein skimming will also do it.  To a lesser extent nitrates can also be removed by adsorbtion on zeolites and activated carbon.  Water changes will also reduce nitrates.  Phosphates are a little bit different beast.  There is no export pathway similar to denitrification.  Phosphates must be removed via those other nitrogen export pathways... namely, protein skimming, zeolites and activated carbon and algae growth (and subsequent harvest).  I think part of Shawns success (on the phosphate front) is his use of zeolites and skimmer.  He has no other phosphate export mechanism.  Growing algae is not that difficult and it kills two birds (nitrogen and phosphorous export) with one stone.  But if you're more comfortable using some other method then have at it.  Refugium life is almost as interesting to observe as "normal" reef tank life.  That alone is worth the effort in my book.

Well, since he dislikes me anyway... posted here, unedited, is what Shawn Barton owner of Aquatica emailed me. I have NO Real PROBLEM with anything he said. I know plenums work.

MARK;

      SHAWN HERE FROM AQUATICA! SOMEONE TURNED ME ON TO THE THREAD ON THE WMAS SITE. I JUST THOUGHT I WOULD ANSWER SOME OF YOUR QUESTIONS THAT YOU POSTED, AND GIVE YOU A BRIEF HISTORY OF MY EXPERIENCE WITHIN THIS HOBBY AND INDUSTRY. YOU SEEM TO KNOW LITTLE ABOUT ME..
     I FELT THIS WOULD BE A LITTLE MORE APPROPRIATE REPLY. THERE WILL BE NO CONTROVERSY OR CONFUSION AFTER THE FACT.
     I STARTED WITH MY FIRST MARINE AQUARIUM IN 1979, SOME 25 YEARS AGO. I WAS AN EMPLOYEE AT A LOCAL FISH STORE CALLED LAMBOURNE TROPICAL FISH HATCHERY, THEY SPECIALIZED IN FRESH AND SALT. I WORKED THERE FOR SEVERAL YEARS, THEN BECAME EMPLOYED @ SALT LAKE AQUARIUM ( FRESH AND SALT ) AND AFTER A BRIEF STINT ( ABOUT A YEAR) I WORKED FOR THEE PET SHOP FOR SEVERAL MORE. MOVED TO ARIZONA IN THE MID 1980'S WORKED @ THE LARGEST PET STORE IN PHOENIX THAT IS WHERE I H! AD MY FIRST EXPERIENCE WITH RDP SYSTEMS. MOVED BACK TO SLC AND AGAIN WORKED IN THE INDUSTRY. YEARS PASSED AND THEN I SET UP MY FIRST REEF AQUARIUM NEARLY 10 YEARS AGO, AND STILL HAVE IT TODAY! THEN AS YOU KNOW I BOUGHT OCEAN LIFE ALMOST 4 YEARS AGO AND SO BEGAN AQUATICA.

ENOUGH ABOUT ME!

NOW TO DISPEL SOME OF THE CONFUSION AND ANSWER SOME OF YOUR QUESTIONS!

AS FOR REFUGIA DEFINITELY DEFINITELY DO HAVE SOME CONTRARY IDEAS ABOUT THEM, IT IS BASED ON MY SUCCESSFUL USE OF THEM FOR THE PAST 3.5 YEARS AND THE EXPERIENCE OF MANY OF MY CUSTOMERS USE. ( MANY 7+ YEARS ) AS WELL AS ALL OF OUR MAINTENANCE ACCOUNTS. I DON'T BELIEVE REFUGIA TO BE BAD JUST TOTALLY INADEQUATE, SOMEWHAT DETRIMENTAL AND WHOLLY UNNECESSARY. IF SOMEONE WANTS TO SET ONE UP THATS GREAT, BUT THEY SHOULD KNOW ALL THE PROS AND CONS SO THEY CAN MAKE AN ! EDUCATED DECISION ON THEIR OWN. (NOT FOLLOW BLINDLY)

AS FOR THE 5-10 YEARS I'M NOT SURE WHERE THAT CAME FROM. BUT TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION ABOUT THE AGES OF MY TANKS- 1 150 GAL. REEF 9+ YRS, 1 90 GAL REEF 7+ YEARS, 1 20 GAL 10+ YEARS, 1 37 GAL REFUGIUM 3+ YRS, 300 GAL ALMOST 2 YRS. TWO OF THEM WERE MOVED 7 YEARS AGO.
     YOU DON'T SERIOUSLY THINK I DON'T UNDERSTAND REFUGIA OR RDP SYSTEMS, I HOPE NOT. YOU SHOULD TALK TO STORE OWNERS MORE OFTEN YOU WOULD BE SURPRISED HOW MUCH SOME OF US COULD LIKELY TEACH YOU!

THERE MAY BE A SMALL CHIP ON MY SHOULDER, BUT OBVIOUSLY NOT NEAR AS LARGE AS YOURS. THE WMAS WAS NOT A TOPIC OF DISCUSSION AS YOU NOW KNOW. I DO BELIEVE THE WMAS IS A GOOD ORGANIZATION, BUT DON'T BUY INTO THE POLITICS AND LACK OF SUPPORT FOR LOCAL BUSINESS.( YOU MUST BE A STORE OWNER TO UNDERSTAND! )

SO HOW MANY DID YOU GET RIGHT?

0 FOR 0
BUT IF YOU DO GET AN INCLINATION TO TALK TO " THESE TYPES OF LOCAL LFS PEOPLE " FEEL FREE, WE ARE ALWAYS AVAILABLE FOR ANY QUESTION YOU MAY HAVE!

THE FACTS STILL REMAIN THE SAME, THERE ARE MANY THINGS THAT YOU AND I WILL CONTINUE TO LEARN . SO CONTINUE TO RESEARCH, EDUCATE AND BUT MOST OF ALL DON'T MISLEAD THROUGH INACCURATE AND MALICIOUS POSTS.

THANKS FOR YOUR PATIENCE AND DONT LAUGH TOO HARD!


SHAWN @ AQUATICA

P.S. ITS BARTON NOT BURTON


Mark here again.
Just for the record, I believe that few store owners recognize what the WMAS has done to enliven the hobby in Utah and to build return customers for the LFS's. I don't know, maybe they think that we do all our shopping online. And that's plain crazy

I welcome Shawn's comments and am happy to see differing viewpoints.

Edited by Mark Peterson

pmpt wrote: I do remember him saying that it could never be large enough to breed enough pods to feed your tank. Which is true.

I have a 25 gallon refugium (which I bought from PMPT ironically) for my 125 gallon tank it breeds pods like mad. I really fail to see his logic.

I bought the tank cheap from someone because they couldn't keep anything alive. I added a refugium and it brought the system to life. Not to mention that I didn't have enough pods to keep all my meat-eaters alive before. I never see a pod alive very long in my main tank, but all my fish (including a dragonette) are all fat and happy, so I figure they are just eating them as they arrive from the RF.

I shudder to see any tank without a RF now, as I wonder how they plan to keep nitrification going and PH balanced.

So does that little tank, you are using as refugium really keep that big 125 up and going with live food? I know it couldn't be all of your feeding, but do you see a difference?

Sorry, about the jip, I hope that someday you could possibly forgive me?

What do you mean you "Caulerpa went sexual"?

pmpt wrote: What do you mean you "Caulerpa went sexual"?

I believe this was one of the possible drawbacks that Shawn was talking about occurring after 5-10 years. If your don't have enough nutrients in the tank to support the Macro Algae, then it 'goes sexual' and essentially dies, dissolves, and sends it's seed off to a better place where more nutrients exists (or so it thinks).

The reason this is dangerous is because for some reason when some of your cauerpa goes sexual, it seems to notify all the other caulerpa to do the same thing, so all your macro can die off in a day. That can throw your tank chemistry off (macro no longer exporting), and cause a crash.

ummmm.....right Mark? (here I am talking like I know what I'm talking about, I just learned all this myself)

Well while there is definitely lots of routes to a successful reef tank I couldnt personanly imagine not having a sump for filtration and a refugium if space and fun dollars permitted it.  I avoided both for a while when I got into the hobby due to lack of knowledge but have slowly added them to all of my systems since first trying one.  In every case they have worked well for me although I realize that others "Milage may vary to one degree or another".  At the moment I think the Nano reef  and Live Rock Vat I have is the only systems with out one.  I have been extremely pleased with the results.

I think Sumps are a better filtration system than the many other options out thier.  I like the fact that I can keep it under the tank where maintenance is much easier.  I like the fact too that I can put all of the crap that distracts from my display down into the sump such as skimmers, heaters etc...

Refugiums...I couldnt imagine not having one on my tanks.  The only disadvantage to them I see is needed space and more money out  lay for set up.  But they can be set up fairly cheaply though.  Most have been set up with Rubbermaid Polyp tanks used for cattle troughs as they are so cheap, durable and easy to work with although the sizes are sometimes a PITA if you want to hide them under a tank.  The other refugiums were from old tanks I had laying around or scammed from prior projects (I keep a lot of reptiles too).  All of mine have DSB's, lots of live rock rubble (DIY Rock seeded with Live Rock) Mangroves and Chaeto macro-algae as a minimum.  Some of my refugiums also have Caleurpa(sp?), but just a little.

Other than some of my refugiums actually looking real nice, I like the fact that I have an endless supply of pods, pepermint shrimp.  I like the fact too that since using them my water has been much more stable, nitrates-phosphates low and no algae problems in the main displays unlike many!

Just my .02 cents worth.....

Improdigal wrote: ummmm.....right Mark? (here I am talking like I know what I'm talking about, I just learned all this myself)

me too.

Yeah, Caulerpa has problems when nutrients are low, which can happen faily quickly in any tank. That's why we seem to be finding success with a variety of macros in the Refugium. Here's the algae in my system, listed by approximate quantity(sorry, few scientific names):

1. 5 Mangroves
2. Chaetomorpha
3. Halimeda
4. the soft brown/green algae that grows on the rocks and glass each day in the bright sun and is eaten every night by Snails, Grammerus (Amphipods) and Copepods
5. Gracilaria
6. Blade Caulerpa
7. Sea Brush
8. Brown Dictyota
9. Blue Dictyota
10. Valonia
11. Large Grape Caulerpa
12. some kind of red bubble algae
13. Cyanobacteria
14. regular grape caulerpa
15. the red cottony algae
16. some kind of Sea Grass from California
17. some kind of leafy algae from California
18. some kind of thick branching algae, also from California (thanks to SMatney )
19. Sawtooth Caulerpa

Wow, I didn't realize that I had that many

From what I've read the reason why caulerpa goes sexual is not because it runs out of nutrients, but because it runs out of space.

Mark Peterson wrote: Yeah, Caulerpa has problems when nutrients are low, which can happen faily quickly in any tank.

If the caulerpa runs out of nutrients it would just stop growing and slowly die off.  Which usually only happens if you don't have a DSB, add little or no food to your tank, and have a large skimmer and other filtration.  Otherwise there is usually a constant stream of N and P. 

So what else would other marcoalgaes take out besides N and P that caulerpa does not?

Edited by cpearce....

I've had caulerpa racemosa peltada dissolve away twice on me.  The only commonality between the two cases, that I can see, is lack of nutrient input.  In both cases the flow through my refugium was greatly reduced due to snails plugging the line to the refugium.  In both cases the algae dissolved within hours (I don't really know how long the water flow was reduced before the event, I just know that I left the house for just a few hours and came back to a mess).  In the first case the algae was crowded but in the second it was not.  Since that time I've read many times that C. racemosa peltada is very prone to doing this... much more so then C. racemosa (grape) or even the other Caulerpas.

Mike Peletta subscribes to the notion that 24hr lighting is, at least partly, the reason why his macro's don't do this.  His reasoning has to do with the photosynthisis "dark reactions" not occuring which is where/when caulerpa's release toxic compounds and go into the reproductive cycle...  But I don't know.