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pmpt 
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 Topic: ?Refugium?
Posted: September 14 2004 at 7:49am |
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I bought fishman's 46 gal. (Thanks again Fishman) bowfront that has a refugium. I was really excited about having a refugium on my tank, but then I went to Aquatica (down in Orem) and was talking to a guy there that doesn't like them. He was saying that they aren't very good, and does not put them on any of his tanks. After so long they will actually be more of a harm to someone's tank. So I was wondering what kind of experiences people have had in them. Good/bad, i want to hear it all. Also, what type of macro algae you have in it, and the sand also. Thanks for all the useful info!
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SSpargur
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Posted: September 14 2004 at 8:07am |
Hmmmm....that's a new one to me. I say have one for sure. IMO if one says that something is "bad" without any facts to back the reasoning, there is no justification.
Pros:
1. The more water that you have in your system, the less forgiving a potential problem may be.
2. You have a place to have more sand and live rock to aide in the denitrification process.
3. You have a place to house algae (most people don't want in the main tank) which removed excess nutrients from the water column.
4. A breeding ground for pods (away from predators.)
5. Ability to run reverse lighting which helps in stabilizing pH during the night hours.
Cons:
1. It can be a pain getting one started and it costs a bit more money to set up.
2. Potential for more spillage if not set up right.
I have been running a refugium the whole time I've had a marine aquarium and I've never had an issue. What is he saying is bad about having one?
Edited by SSpargur
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Sean Spargur
West Valley, UT
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pmpt
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Posted: September 14 2004 at 8:33am |
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I wish I could remember all the facts behind his reasoning. I do remember him saying that it could never be large enough to breed enough pods to feed your tank. Which is true. And that your tank would be doing that just as much. But like what you said, away from predators. Also, it had to be 70% the size of your main tank to make it worthwhile, and no one has a refugium that size. If you ever get a chance to go to Orem, stop in and ask him about his refugium.
Also, how long has your refugium been up and running on the tank? He said that it usually took about 5-10 years before you saw the really bad side effects. Like caulerpa dying off because a lack of food, causing a toxin in your tank, and killin off your fish.
Thanks for the info.
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: September 14 2004 at 8:55am |
 pmpt wrote:
He said that it usually took about 5-10 years before you saw the really bad side effects. Like caulerpa dying off because a lack of food, causing a toxin in your tank, and killin off your fish. |
5-10 years!!!!! How long has he had his oldest tank running? Few tanks make it past 5 years without being moved, and cleaned in the process. His comment leads me to believe that he does not understand Refugia, may never have correctly set one up (RDP), has success with his current setups (lots of ways work) and has a chip on his shoulder regarding the WMAS(Shawn Burton the owner, or a loyal employee?). How many of these did I get right?  If I had the presence of mind or the inclination to ask certain questions of these types of LFS people, I would be hated by many of them. I try to be polite, to let them have their moment, and then laugh hysterically as I drive away. As well as I'm sure many of them do after I leave their store Seriously though, I can't say it any better than SSpargur above. 
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pmpt
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Posted: September 14 2004 at 9:08am |
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Like I said, I can't remember everything he was telling me. Sort of made sense, but like you said Mark, I don't think he really knew how to set it up the right way. But in fairness, I didn't say a word about WMAS. So he had no idea that I post here. And my guess would be that it was Shawn Burton, he was the only guy there, and he acted like he knew a lot.
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: September 14 2004 at 9:21am |
Shawn is very knowledgable and has really taken that store and made it into a leader. He has his quirky ideas about things, just like the rest of us (me) 
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BrokeCurmudgeon
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Posted: September 14 2004 at 9:42am |
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What I have learned is that there are a lot of very knowledgeable people with much experience in this endeavor. And some are professionally trained. That being said, you have to be able to sort out the many opinions and weigh them as to the context of the question. Then you "pays your money and takes your chances". Or in other words, "Take my advice, I'm not using it anyhow!". Good luck!
Edited by BrokeCurmudgeon
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: September 14 2004 at 10:01am |
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Fred, you are too cool!
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Will Spencer
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Posted: September 14 2004 at 10:26am |
SSpargur wrote:
Pros:
1. The more water that you have in your system, the less forgiving a potential problem may be. |
Since I know he meant "The more forgiving a potential problem may be." I'll note it here.
There are many opinions on many subjects in this hobby. Many things work perfectly for many different people. Sean probably has a great system worked out for his tanks. He must because his show tanks look great. However, I bet you'd find if you took a poll that most members of WMAS use sumps and refugiums. This is because they work great for most of us. But sump/refugium are like plenum. Some people swear by them, some people hate them. What works well for you is the best choice, but for my money definately use a sump/RDP refugium.
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pmpt
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Posted: September 14 2004 at 10:29am |
Okay, what are your guy's feelings on plenum's? I have one for the 46 gal tank, but didn't put it on when I first set it up cause I haven't heard good things about them. Now that I will be transfering all my stuff to a new tank, I wonder if I should put it in. Thats another thing Sean said, he only uses plenum's and loves them. Feelings? 
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Adam Blundell
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Posted: September 14 2004 at 10:30am |
I can't think of a reason to not have a sump. Even a 10 gal sump on a 1,000 gal tank is beneficial.
It gives you an area to put a skimmer, or to put a bag of carbon, or to have your water top off, or whatever else. Even if you don't make a refugium, and sump is still good to have.
Adam
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pmpt
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Posted: September 14 2004 at 10:37am |
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I totally agree. And so did Sean, he would use a sump, with a plenum. He just didn't like the refugium. He said it was a passing craze that would go away, once people saw how it affected their tanks in the long run. So I am just wondering how long people have been using their refugiums. Just to see an idea on how things are going.
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: September 14 2004 at 11:22am |
Did Shawn say he would put a plenum in his sump? Plenums have been discussed so many times here. Please search this MB for previous threads, as recent as a few weeks ago. The article I referred you to, about RDP Refugia, was originally written around 1997. That refugium lasted till I moved in 2002 so it was operating for almost 6 years and I've set up many more for myself and others since then. Perhaps this is the sort of thing where seeing would be believing. On the RT, visit the Bangerter tank with RDP Refugium (and then drive 3 minutes South and see my tanks. ) The Bangerter 180 and RDP Refugium has been going for about 3.5 years. BTW regarding one of SB's comments, It doesn't take 5-10 years. In as little as a year, Caulerpa in a Refugium can strip the tank of nutrients and then go sexual and dissolve. So regarding those that think a Refugium is just Caulerpa, I'll say it again: The best algae in a Refugium is not just Caulerpa. Other types of algae MUST be used for the Refugium to do its job. (I like Mangrove trees in there too.)
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pmpt
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Posted: September 14 2004 at 11:39am |
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No, No, No, he uses plenums with a sump. But the plenum is up in the main tank, where its suppose to go.
Unfortuantly, I can't make the RT, I have to work til 4:30 on that saturday. But oh well...
I believe refugium's work and work well, I just wanted some different opinions, and see if anyone has run into any troubles. See what works and what doesn't. I would also like to try some mangroves, but the sump is way too tall. It wouldn't have anyroom for the trees under there.
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ssilcox
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Posted: September 14 2004 at 2:22pm |
pmpt wrote:
But the plenum is up in the main tank, where its suppose to go.
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I don't know about that. To resolve some of the issues that have occurred because of plenums, I have heard of people using plenums in their sump. That way, if you need to remove your plenum for any reason, it is easily removed without tearing apart your display. And you are still getting the benefits of a plenum. (Which are arguable anyway...)
Why not just use a DSB?
Edited by ssilcox
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pmpt
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Posted: September 14 2004 at 2:42pm |
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What is a DSB? I really need to learn all of these acroynms.
Would you put sand in your sump, if you used the plenum down there?
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SSpargur
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Posted: September 14 2004 at 3:27pm |
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Sean Spargur
West Valley, UT
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rstruhs
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Posted: September 14 2004 at 3:28pm |
pmpt wrote:
What is a DSB? I really need to learn all of these acroynms.
Would you put sand in your sump, if you used the plenum down there? |
DSB = Deep Sand Bed
Acronynms = see this thread http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3622
Sand in your sump? No, in the refugium, you might suck sand in your pump! However, my sump/refuguim is together and I have a suction hose in it just above the sand.
If you used the plenum down there? Yes/No, see above.
The advantage of a plenum is to get more of the bacteria that convert Ammonia to Nitrite and Nitrite to Nitrate. Those bacteria are fast growing and fast workers. They can be found in the sand, rocks, and water. So, just add more rocks to your refugium!
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pmpt
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Posted: September 14 2004 at 3:37pm |
I don't think I can add any more rock. I have about 55 pounds in a 46 gal. Its kinda full, plus I like how it looks right now, but I will more than likely put more live rock in the refugium. And yes I have seen that forum, just hard to remember everything. I'm thinking, when I change my tanks, I'll put in the plenum. I guess it can't hurt. But I still have a few months to decide that. I got to repaint the stand and canopy. Any other info on refugiums, types of macroalgae, or pods would be greatly appreciated.
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smatney
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Posted: September 14 2004 at 3:46pm |
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How deep is deep for a DSB?
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Susan Matney
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