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Ich!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CapnMorgan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2010 at 8:52pm
Originally posted by Mark Peterson Mark Peterson wrote:

Lot's of people with more experience and intelligence than me recommend quarantine for everything, and yet not all the experts agree on that. I have personally asked many of our guest speakers about it. Many feel the same way and have the same experience as me. The quarantine is so stressful for the new fish that if Garlic Oil is not used, it stills gets infested with the Ich parasite after being moved out of quarantine into the new tank. Cry


If the tank is a healthy environment for the incoming fish; an environment that minimizes stress because of the ample supply of natural food growing in the tank and tank mates that are friendly(or trained to be friendlyWink) then the use of a Garlic Oil that is effective in that particular tank will prevent most fish mortality.

That's why I applaud Clap what was said by Downhill_biker and BobC63 about making sure the tank is a healthy environment. Unfortunately, people do not always understand what is meant by the term "healthy environment". For example, too many hobbyists still do not understand or recognize the importance of Alkalinity and Calcium. If we looked at the hobby as expressed by the "complete test kits" at the LFS, which lack Alk and Ca tests, we would have to admit that the hobby still has some catching up to do.Stern Smile

Mark steps down from his soapbox.Wink

+1 to that. Less stress=less Ich
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bstuver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2010 at 8:55pm
I haven't kept salt fish for long enough but when I was keeping discus every time I qt them I would end up killing them where as if I ordered from a reputable person and just added them to the main tank I never had a problem.
Jackie Stuver

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shayne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2010 at 9:02pm
Interesting... This is completely different than what I see on RC. Someone will post that they're having trouble with their tank, or that they have ich, and there is an immediate dog-pile of people chastising them for not using a QT tank. I don't think I've seen one person on there with the mindset you guys espouse.

With that said, I think the "healthy tank" mindset makes more sense. The more I've learned about ich, and other diseases/parasites, the more I've begun to feel that even quarantine doesn't really work in the long run. It seems to me that it's pretty much impossible to effectively us a QT if your tank has anything other than fish in it.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tropi_gal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2010 at 11:56pm
Good news!  After only 3 doses of garlic/food all three of my tangs are showing less ich!
 
I did pull out my unidentified blenny because he was in the return and looking very stressed.  I let him swim in formalin, malachite green for an hour before putting him in a QT. He is looking pretty stressed but he looked just that way in the return.
 
I absolutely agree with the healthy tank = healthy fish idea.
 
Out of curiosity... when my fish recover from this outbreak are they immune from the next one?  Will the parasite die out because there are no clear hosts?  If the new fish didn't show any signs of ich could they have carried it in? (I never add LFS water to my tank).
 
I really appreciate the conversations. Thanks!!! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2010 at 8:49am
Immunity? Sorry, no.
The parasite appears to always live subdued in every tank. It can be carried in on fish, rock, sand and coral. Just a drop of water could contain the larval form.

Ich is only noticed when it gets out of control. I have often wondered if it lives in some form on healthy fish because even after a year of no problems, a new Ich outbreak can occur when the tank is stressed for any reason, even though nothing has been added. Rearranging the aquascaping can bring on stress in some individual fish, resulting in Ich.Ouch
That's why we recommend feeding GO at least once every 2-3 weeks as a preventive.

Regarding RC. I don't go there. The wisdom of the good hobbyists gets drowned out by too much loud noise from so many newbies.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BobC63 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2010 at 10:49am
Originally posted by bstuver bstuver wrote:

I haven't kept salt fish for long enough but when I was keeping discus every time I qt them I would end up killing them where as if I ordered from a reputable person and just added them to the main tank I never had a problem.
 
 
Originally posted by Shayne Shayne wrote:

Interesting... This is completely different than what I see on RC. Someone will post that they're having trouble with their tank, or that they have ich, and there is an immediate dog-pile of people chastising them for not using a QT tank. I don't think I've seen one person on there with the mindset you guys espouse.

With that said, I think the "healthy tank" mindset makes more sense. The more I've learned about ich, and other diseases/parasites, the more I've begun to feel that even quarantine doesn't really work in the long run. It seems to me that it's pretty much impossible to effectively us a QT if your tank has anything other than fish in it. 
 
 
I almost hesitate to bring this up... but... I haven't used a QT tank in 20 years Embarrassed
 
Not that I think a QT tank is a "bad" idea in itself; it is just that most QT tank setups (IMO) do more harm than good - mainly because they are too small and barren; which (IMO) actually stresses the new fish out even more.
 
If I was going to QT a tang, for example, - any tang 2" or larger,  I would want to use at least a 55g tank for the QT to avoid the fish feeling cramped. Now, I don't want to have to dedicate a whole (even bare-bones) 55g setup to do that - and very few other hobbyists would go that large just to QT a single (or a couple of) new fish, either.
 
Most people would probably be QT'ing in a tank as small as a 20g or even a 10g. Much too small (again, IMO) for the comfort and security of the fish; and that small a water volume is more prone to larger parameter swings due to insufficient biofiltration or even things like evaporation. I just feel that the potential for the "average" (read : "small") QT system to actually increase the risk of a new specimen getting worse is too great.
 
Now, not using a standard QT means I am extra, extra careful when it comes to picking out new fish. If the fish doesn't look 100% physically perfect with no extrnal signs of illness, or it is not eating, swimming with vigor, and interacting with any other tankmates in the LFS tank, etc - then it doesn't get brought home. Period.
 
I hesitiate to pass this info on to newbies because sometimes human nature leads us to only take to parts of advice, and not the whole deal as a package. And some people might take this as me telling them they "don't need a QT tank" and they can just throw ANY specimen right straight into the display... so then they go out and buy a fish of obviously questionable health (not eating at the store, looks a little haggard, but, hey, it was the only one of that type of fish available, and they want one! - so they bought it anyway... and (because they only listened to part of the advice) then maybe they haven't been as vilgilant with the whole "healthy tank" concept in their display tank, either. Maybe water parameters still flucuate excessively, or maybe they have too many fish in too small a tank. Maybe they are trying to put a 5" Hippo Tang into a 55g tank (!) that already has a 3" Yellow Tang (!!) and a 4" Sailfin Tang in it (!!!)... so they just dump this marginal fish into a less than optimal enviroment, it gets sick, it dies... and worse, since the display tank was a less than "healthy" tank to begin with, the disease now spreads, and they start to lose a bunch of fish...
 
And then they come back on here, and are upset because "some guy here told me don't use a QT tank - and I listened to him - and now all my fish are dead..."
 
 
So don't listen to me Wink
 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
As far as the RC thing goes...
 
I think ReefCentral can be a great source for information.
 
But...
 
I'll just say it.
 
I think we are better. Shocked
 
Why?
 
Local people, local conditions, experience with the local stores, etc.
 
And... more people here are willing to post up their own experiences and / or opinions based on actually having done something a certain way, or actually having used a certain product or piece of equipment - rather than just repeating some info they have read about or heard about second-hand on what is "best", without ever having really tried or tested out what they are talking about. And IMO that "repeating" stuff happens alot on RC; especially when people are eager to look like they know alot / know what they are talking about, by jumping all over someone who is doing something different than what they have been repeating as the "best" way to do something...
 
Big smile
 
 
- My Current Tank: 150g Mixed Reef -

* Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 *
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CapnMorgan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2010 at 11:04am
I don't use a QT tank either. I do however put new fish into my frag tank first (which does have some LR in there) until they feel comfortable with people, and are eating whatever I like to feed.

As for the RC thing, I completely agree. People here (for the most part) are much more level headed, and when we have people like Mark here there really isn't a need to go looking somewhere where heresay is what people run their tanks on. Here you also have the benefit of avoiding the ban hammer. I managed to get banned from RC w/o ever posting a single thing!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shayne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2010 at 11:58am
Originally posted by CapnMorgan CapnMorgan wrote:

I managed to get banned from RC w/o ever posting a single thing!
lol! How did that happen?
 
For what it's worth, I use WMAS as my primary info forum. I just go to RC when I'm bored. Sometimes this forum gets a little slow.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CapnMorgan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2010 at 12:01pm
reef2reef baby, much friendlier than RC ever was.


Steve
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sukie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2010 at 12:20pm
If you're anything like me. . you''re impatient.  I don't use a QT tank either.

When I had my 90gal up. . there was only really type of fish that got ich and that was my hippo tangs.  Notorious for ich, but I lowered my salinity and it was gone in less than 24hrs. 

That's a good subject for next months meeting: to QT or not to QT. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SGH360 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2010 at 3:09pm
i think if your going to quaratine is when youre going to start from scratch and only then you can set up strict quaratine rules. Even then there still stuff that you wont be able to detected on the QT tank and will be transfer to the tank anyways.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mikeden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2010 at 12:14pm
Ozone!
 
With all due respect to the seasoned veterans...  An ozone generator hooked up to my skimmer is the only thing that ever worked for me.  I bought a $400 80-watt UV, and let it run for a month with no results.  I tried the garlic, with a little result but no complete cure.
 
I hooked up the Ozone, and in 24 hours things looked better.  After 72 hours almost completely cured.  I bought the ozone generator two years ago, and I've never QT'ed and never had a problem with Ich since.
 
Just my two cents.  I respect and admire everyone on the board, and have learned tons from all.  This is just what worked for me.  Smile
 
Mike
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2010 at 5:34pm
Not that many years ago I doubted the ability of Ozone or UV to resolve a problem with Ich. I have since seen too many positive outcomes. I'm no longer a doubter, but I still avoid additional equipment wherever possible.

Whether a tank is healthy or not is a subjective call. We all have a different understanding of healthy, the same as we each have of different idea of "clean". The use of Ozone in a skimmer or hooking up a UV Sterilizer kind of eliminates the subjectiveness of it all. Smile

Still, learning about how to improve the health of a tank is beneficial for all hobbyists, and their tanks.


Edited by Mark Peterson - July 12 2010 at 5:37pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AvesSaltGuy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2010 at 11:22pm
arf.
 
i have a desjardinii, purple tang, blue eyed kole, and orange shoulder... 2 pairs of clowns, a 6 line wrasse, fairy wrasse, and a coral beauty.
 
when i added the tangs, i noticed a bit of an ich flare-up. it seems to ebb and flow, i'm keeping the temp at about 82 and feeding regularly (every day with GO).
 
i'm giving seaweed sheets with garlic, some pellet (with garlic as well) and then mixing some marine snow, phtyo, and either brine/mysis etc. on a daily basis.
 
everyone is eating. everyone is active. my blue eyed kole tang seems to be losing weight though.
 
am i doing everything i can? i have a sterilizer, skimmer, and so on. i've been really on top of everythin in this aquarium lately....
 
ideas?
 
thanks!
Michael - 120G Reef Acans, Pom Poms, Zoas... Clowns, a firefish, and a coral beauty -purple tang, sailfin desjardinii, Filtration - sump, protein skimmer, UV sterilizer, 2 Koralias, refugium.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote downhill_biker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2010 at 1:07am
Mechael, I would up the amount of garlic you are using, really get them a ton of it. Another HUGE problem I see is the temp. You should lower your temp quite a bit. Probably keep it around 76-78 degrees. Keeping the temp that high not only stresses the fish but it also increases the speed at which the ich goes through it's life cycle and therefore multiplies more quickly. What are you ammonia and nitrate readings?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2010 at 8:43am
Good write up Michael and good comments from Curtis.
I agree, the temperature is way too high. I set heaters at 75 and just to be safe, I unplug heaters in the summer. When the temp gets up to 81 the fan goes "ON".Smile

I wonder about the GO. If Ich is still visible when GO is being used every day then something is wrong.
1- wrong Garlic Oil product    Answer- switch GO
2- substandard feeding          Answer- Feed more Macroalgae and lettuce and use only Emerald Entree instead of BS/Mysis/pellets
2- inadequate biofiltration      Answer- Improve LS, more spaces between LR, increase flow and use Macroalgae for filtration

Originally posted by AvesSaltGuy AvesSaltGuy wrote:

Filtration - sump, protein skimmer, UV sterilizer, 2 Koralias, refugium.
This from your signature line, is not the major portion of your filtration.



Edited by Mark Peterson - July 18 2010 at 8:45am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote downhill_biker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2010 at 11:18am
I agree about the filtration maybe being an issue, that is why I asked what the nitrates and ammonia were. That can cause a lot of stress on fish and you can't physically "see" it. I dont know if there is a right or wrong on GO, but I have found using a couple at the same time works great. I usually soak the food in a small bowl with the big bottles of garlic that they sell at Fish4U, not sure what brand, but they are a liquid, not concentrate. Then I put a few drops of Kent Garlic Extreme in there, that stuff is strong. I figure use a ton of garlic, it is cheap compared to the cost of fish.
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I am seriously still a newbie at this hobby, even with 3 years under my belt.  And I usually know when not to stick my nose into business I know little about...  But I'm going to risk getting flamed, just to offer a little something more...  Please be nice with the kicks to my head.  Wacko

Article I read (I'm using this supporting data as my Kevlar flack jacket)....
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-12/rhf/feature/index.php

So, it seems to me (the idiot that I am)...  that ORP, and Ozone are a natural part of the "Ocean" water.  So, my rationalization is...  Why should an ozone generator be considered any less natural than garlic? I don't see any garlic plants growing in the ocean, but correct me if I'm wrong.

I spent probably $150 on Garlic Oil products, and many, many valuable hours of my own administering and evaluating the Garlic progress and effectiveness.  I'll round it out to about $500 worth of product and my hourly time combined.

I purchased a fairly good ozone generator on eBay for $59 plus $5.95 shipping, so $65 total for product.  No need to pay extra for the Red Sea brand.  Then it took me about 2 hours to read the instructions, install, and get up the guts to fire the thing up.  So even at a stretch on my hourly rate, less than $150 total.

So, at the risk of getting yelled at...  Save yourselves some money, save the frustration, do something natural, and use OZONE!

Big smile  My comments are solely my opinion.  All in good fun, and with respect.  To use an old, worn out adage, "Your Mileage May Vary".

Respectfully,
Mike




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I love ozone!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AvesSaltGuy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 22 2010 at 6:18pm
Upgraded my sterilizer and much improved may try ozone!
Michael - 120G Reef Acans, Pom Poms, Zoas... Clowns, a firefish, and a coral beauty -purple tang, sailfin desjardinii, Filtration - sump, protein skimmer, UV sterilizer, 2 Koralias, refugium.
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