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Params off?

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Mark Peterson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2010 at 8:15pm
Originally posted by wickedsnowman wickedsnowman wrote:

...a bunch of threads on rc about this same thing...

You will eventually come to find that of the 1000's of hobbyists on RC, relatively few know enough to depend upon. About 50% of all hobbyists have been in this hobby for a year or less. There is a very high rate of turnover. That makes it crucial to know the experience and reliable knowledge level of the person giving the advice.

The WMAS/Utahreefs Message Board has a much larger percentage of knowledgeable hobbyists that together have a full range of experience. Also, these hobbyists don't let misinformation get very far before posting to help resolve any confusion or to correct any misinformation.

It's too bad that more wasn't known before this tank was moved. I am truly sorry for the loss of coral.Cry The LS is one of the issues and there may be more, but it's too late. The tank is moved and die-off is polluting.

I'm sorry. We have discussed the best way to move a tank many times before, yet I failed to link those threads in my Tips and How to's section. Sorry. I'll be sure to go back and update that soon.Smile


Edited by Mark Peterson - August 15 2010 at 8:19pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2010 at 8:40pm
We also ought to help by commenting on the other levels. Here are my comments. Smile

Calcium- 380 That's just okay. If it were me I would increase Calcium to ~450. Start by adding at least 2 cups of Calcium Chloride Solution and test the following day to see how much the Calcium was raised.
alk- 7.84  That's too low. I would increase Alkalinity to ~10 dKH. Start by adding 1 cup of Alkalinity Solution and testing the following day to see how much the Alk was raised. Alkalinity can be raised by up to 1 dKH per day without causing any problem (add the Ca and Alk solutions at least 5 minutes apart, otherwise they will combine and precipitate out of the water.)
PH 8.0  This is just okay but will increase naturally when the Alkalinity is raised. How is the water flow and gas exchange in this tank?
ammonia 0.3  We have already discussed this and offered some of the solutions.(there are more solutions, btw) Any level above 0.2 for more than a day is going to kill life.
phosphate - in between 0 and 0.25  That is a normal reading and nothing to worry about.
Nitrate-5  very good number, but if the Nitrogen/Pollution cycle rolls on without interruption, this number could rise to harmful levels
Nitrite- 0.1  good number, but if the Nitrogen/Pollution cycle rolls on without interruption, this number could rise to harmful levels

A pic of the tank would be good here, just in case there is anything else we can catch and help you correct.Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bstuver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2010 at 8:58pm
Well as I said I actually used all sand from dans tank, funny thing is I have smelled sand that has anerobic spots from when I was moved freshwater tanks and this sand did not smell at all. I had done this same thing when I bought a 46g tank and moved everything from it to my 60g cube that use to be freshwater. I moved all the sand and that sand actually smelled worse and I had no problems.
I don't know I am guessing that may have started it but I am thinking that brain dyeing like it did caused alot of pollutants! Almost all of my softies were open today with the exception of a couple. I got some macro algae, have had the lights on and will leave them on, and did another water change.
I am working on getting my alk up and my calcium is now up as I did my water change with oceanic salt mix.
Anyway thanks for the help.
Jackie Stuver

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bstuver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2010 at 7:04pm
K well things are clearing up and looking a bit better.
My params today are:
Ammonia-0.3 this topped out at 0.6 yesterday I did another water change and have now added a pad meant to get rid of ammonia into my sump along with lights being left on and got some macro algae from two places(thanks Justin and David)
Temp-77
Alk-almost at 9 I am still slowly working this up
calcium- 480
Nitrate-5
Nitrite-0
Salinity slowly moved up to 1.026


I don't know if things in the tank are looking better or not I think I have removed everything that was dead or looked dead:( Clowns are still doing well, unfortunately haven't seen my manderin since yesterday and I have a smaller goby that I saw last night but he hides with the lights being on.
Jackie Stuver

"wait these aren't the happy Hawaiians oompa doompa godly heaven on your face zoas?   I dont want them then. lol!" Ksmart
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BobC63 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2010 at 8:18pm
I hadn't been around much this weekend and didn't realize you were having so much trouble.
 
I do not recommend re-using a live sandbed.
 
Not everyone would agree, but here is my reasoning and IMO there is science to back it up:
 
Everyone look at your sandbed and imagine a cross-section of the bed, depth-wise. Different organisms inhabit different levels of the sandbed. The main determinant of where in a sandbed an organism dwells is the oxygen levels.
 
I think everyone understands that the top layer of a sandbed has the most oxygen available, and that the level drops the deeper you go. Well, when you scoop out an established sandbed to transfer it from one tank to another, those levels get mixed together. What ends up happening is that any of the anerobic (low oxygen) bacteria that were present in the bottom layers of sand, that are now near the top... they die off due to excessive oxygen levels. Any of the aerobic (high oxygen) bacteria that were present in the top layer of sand, now scooped into the bottom layer of the new tank... they die off due to oxygen starvation.
 
Bottom line is that most of the existing bacteria actually dies during the sandbed transfer, or shortly thereafter, due to the mixing of the sand strata during the transfer. All this dead organic matter starts a chain reaction in which larger organisms start to die off, further deteriorating the water quality and available oxygen in the water column itself. Add to that any "pockets" of malicious chemicals that may have existed in the original sandbed and - boom! a tank crash.
 
The best way is to do this is to reserve a small amount of the top layer of sand (a cup or 2 is enough) and then either fully wash the entire rest of the sandbed out with FW to basically 'sterilize' it - or use new, dry sand. That one or 2 cups of 'seed' sand is enough to start the colonization of the top layer (nitrifying) bacteria. If you then use a good amount of well-established live rock in the larger tank then the 'seed' bacteria for the bottom layer of sand (denitrifying) will come from within the live rock.
 
You should also reserve some of the water from the smaller tank to add into the new tank. This "live water' will contain helpful bacteria and algae spores, etc to help populate the new tank.
 
If you look at my 225 Build Thread, this is what I did when I went from the 125 to the 225. I had no spike or mini-cycle, and no die-off due the transfer. All I got was a little cloudiness that lasted around 12 hrs and a small diatom bloom on the surface of the new sandbed.
 
Again, sorry that you had so much trouble.
 
 
 
 
 
- My Current Tank: 150g Mixed Reef -

* Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 *
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2010 at 9:50pm
I agree with Bob.

Originally posted by bstuver bstuver wrote:

...funny thing is I have smelled sand that has anerobic spots from when I was moved freshwater tanks and this sand did not smell at all.

I had done this same thing when I bought a 46g tank ... I moved all the sand and that sand actually smelled worse and I had no problems.

...that brain dyeing like it did caused a lot of pollutants!


I'm sorry to say that it may have just been dumb luck the first time. There were probably other positive things you were unaware of that mediated the seriousness of the problem. For instance, maybe the sand from that tank was not nearly as established as the sand from Dan's tank. Newer sand, cleaner sand or sand that has been vacuumed will not cause problems like that. (that does not mean to say that vacuumed sand is better, no not at all.)

It's not really an anaerobic sand, it's not the smell of rotten egg gas and it's not even that the sand from Dan's tank was bad, no not at all. It's the disturbance of a lot of organic matter that had lived a long time in one spot and the amount of crud that was uncovered and the load of crud that was buried. It's the sand home of millions of bugs and worms and trillions of bacteria that was completely upset so that they suffocated and died. (I think I just repeated what Bob said.Embarrassed)

And then of course the domino effect of other organisms dieing and adding to the pollution of the tank which had little biofiltration to eat up that pollution. It looked okay for the first few days because it starts small but soon, like a snowball rolling down the mountain, it becomes practically unstoppable.Ouch


Edited by Mark Peterson - August 16 2010 at 9:56pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bstuver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2010 at 10:01pm
K so I have a question, in my 60g tank that is still running I have batting stuff in the overflow chamber as it helped clear micro stuff from the water. Would it help to take that and put it in my sump so it can start the colony of good stuff back up? I don't know how that works in a salt tank, if it were fresh water this is how we seed our new tank so we don't get a cycle.
Jackie Stuver

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2010 at 10:06pm
Oh and besides the Ammonia absorbing pad that you are using, there is a simple liquid product that neutralizes Ammonia. I know that Jake Pehrson, another of the knowledgeable and experienced hobbyists here, often uses it for tank moves.

I hope that this experience hasn't completely soured you to the hobby, but that it helps you recognize the great value of coming here to ask questions and receive the knowledge that will make your reefkeeping experience more positive and enjoyable. Hug
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bstuver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2010 at 10:06pm
Also where it is ammonia that seems to be the last thing I need to get rid of, am I on the right track?
I would assume if I removed everything and got new sand at this point it might do more harm? I don't know I am pretty bummed I lost a lot of stuff, and I don't know if I should be doing anything more than what I am.
Jackie Stuver

"wait these aren't the happy Hawaiians oompa doompa godly heaven on your face zoas?   I dont want them then. lol!" Ksmart
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2010 at 10:08pm
You are right. Seeding fw or salt works on the same principle.Thumbs Up

The N cycle starts with Ammonia. Nitrite and Nitrate are on their way they just haven't shown up yet. Everything you can do to eliminate Ammonia and to increase the biofiltration to reduce the pollution of these next two phases of the cycle will be appreciated by your reef and by you.Wink


Edited by Mark Peterson - August 16 2010 at 10:14pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bstuver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2010 at 10:09pm
Originally posted by Mark Peterson Mark Peterson wrote:

Oh and besides the Ammonia absorbing pad that you are using, there is a simple liquid product that neutralizes Ammonia. I know that Jake Pehrson, another of the knowledgeable and experienced hobbyists here, often uses it for tank moves.

I hope that this experience hasn't completely soured you to the hobby, but that it helps you recognize the great value of coming here to ask questions and receive the knowledge that will make your reefkeeping experience more positive and enjoyable. Hug


Would that be Amquel?
Nah I will be fine, just frustrated and I lost a lot of beautiful corals so that part really sucks. But I had discus before I did this and they were frustrating as well so it's all good.
Hopefully I am on the right track:)
Jackie Stuver

"wait these aren't the happy Hawaiians oompa doompa godly heaven on your face zoas?   I dont want them then. lol!" Ksmart
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bstuver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2010 at 10:10pm
Originally posted by Mark Peterson Mark Peterson wrote:

You are right.Seeding fw or salt works on the same principle.Thumbs Up


Great I will throw that in my sump and hopefully it will help out:)
Jackie Stuver

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SGH360 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2010 at 10:17pm
does FW bacteria is the same as SW or is it like ich? one for each type of water
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bstuver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2010 at 10:21pm
It's from a salt tank not a fresh water tank so no worryWink
Jackie Stuver

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2010 at 10:41pm
Yes, Amquel, Prime and a few others. They are very limited and require quite a lot to do the job, but can be helpful.

I just did a google search about "reducing ammonia in the aqurium" and one of the top hits said "the best way to reduce ammonia is water changes" This comes from an aquarium site. Of course it is one of the ways, but certainly not the best or the easiest.  I hope that we can understand the real truth about water changes, biology and biofiltration.
First, a 20% water change only reduces anything, whether it is Ammonia, Nitrite or Nitrate by 20% That means that the 0.3 Ammonia will be lowered to 0.24 and a second 20% water change will lower the level to 0.2. That's only 30% reduction.Shocked
At the same time, 20% of the Ammonia eating bacteria living in Live Water are being removed from the system, reducing the ability of the system to help itself. Not so good.Ouch

On the other hand, when a bunch of algae is well illuminated 24/7 it can reduce the Ammonia and other N compounds by 50% in a 24 hour period. I've seen it in practice. The reason you only hear it from me is because few people have tried it, or if they did try it the attempt came later after the biofiltration in the tank had naturally compensated. Unfortunately, it came too late to save the coral or fish.

Now I'm rambling, but look at how long ago I posted the thread about using LS, LR, LW and Macroalgae! While new gadgets seem to catch on fire, old antiquated biological misunderstanding dies hard in this hobby.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bstuver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2010 at 10:49pm
Originally posted by Mark Peterson Mark Peterson wrote:

You are right. Seeding fw or salt works on the same principle.Thumbs Up

The N cycle starts with Ammonia. Nitrite and Nitrate are on their way they just haven't shown up yet. Everything you can do to eliminate Ammonia and to increase the biofiltration to reduce the pollution of these next two phases of the cycle will be appreciated by your reef and by you.Wink


So other than what I am doing, is there anything else I should be doing?
I have added the ammonia pad, I will go pick up some amquel tomorrow I use prime as my water conditioner but am freshly out.
I have the lights running 24/7 on the tank and the macro algae
I added the filter material from my 60g tank
I have done 3-4 water changes but maybe from your last post I should just let the lights take effect.
I have removed anything that looks dead or dying
I think that's it:( Anything else I can do other than go get the amquel tomorrow?
I am starting to see a brown algae on the some of the rocks in the tank.
Jackie Stuver

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2010 at 8:32pm
Brown algae is a very good sign. Let it grow for now because it is eating up the pollution. The glass may get to where you can't see through it, but that's okay. It will speed up the removal of Ammonia and the next pollutants in the cycle, which I'll bet never get out of bounds because of the right things you are doing.
You are doing good.Thumbs Up
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