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20g Sump Plans - Complete

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Mark Peterson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2010 at 9:59am
That looks nice.
Okay, you wanted comments right?
Now consider that if for some reason the overflow fails and water stops draining from the tank above, what will happen?
For the solution, see the pic I posted earlier in this thread and the explanation below.

Another comment is about the use of that tiny Refugium container and so much unused space around the return pump. I have found the systems that maximize the size of the area for sand and Macroalgae in the RDP Refugium, do much better than those with a small space. I cannot think of anyone that has chosen to take the sand out of their Refugium! There's just no argument for that. Notice that I don't even mention the use of LR in a Refugium. There is a reason for that.Smile Rock takes up space that algae could be using.
It would be better to use 2-6" of Oolitic sand and set the powerhead return pump on a pedestal so that it cannot be fouled by sand and even more important, so it cannot push all the water out of the Refugium and flood the display tank. Ouch
In that pic, the pedestal is a Swamp Cooler pump strainer basket. The powerhead sits in another basket to prevent Macroalgae from getting stuck in the intake.
The reason there is no sand in that Refugium was mostly because the display had an average 6" of sandbed! If I had found that filtration was insufficient, 4" of sand was ready to go into the Refugium. I just love how we have access to an unlimited amount of sand.Big smile
 





Edited by Mark Peterson - October 27 2010 at 10:25am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ahanix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2010 at 11:56am
Thanks again for the input mark. I'll definitely look into the issue with the return pump having access to the 8g of water. As for the fuge. The #1 reason why I am doing it this way is because I am still not sold on the whole refugium idea. This way I can do a study to compare the differences between running a fuge and just using a sump to hide all the mechanical goodies that we dont want anyone to see.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ryan Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2010 at 12:01pm
Refugium smefugium!

That is what I say. They are pointless on my tanks. Heck the way I run my tanks, I couldn't grow macro algae if I tried and that's the way I like it! There wouldn't be enough nutrients to keep the algae alive.

I have tried refugiums with DSB and tried my tanks without. If I didn't have a skimmer, I would run a refugium but since I have a skimmer and run my tank with bacteria and carbon, there is no point. I have had much better success with my current setup then my old ones.

The sump looks good to me. I have one baffle in my sump to keep the water level consistent for my skimmer. Since I started dosing bacteria to my tank, my skimmer foams like crazy and is pulling out more gunk than before.

My 2 cents.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ahanix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2010 at 12:12pm
Originally posted by Ryan Thompson Ryan Thompson wrote:

Refugium smefugium!
That is what I say. They are pointless on my tanks. Heck the way I run my tanks, I couldn't grow macro algae if I tried and that's the way I like it! There wouldn't be enough nutrients to keep the algae alive.
I have tried refugiums with DSB and tried my tanks without. If I didn't have a skimmer, I would run a refugium but since I have a skimmer and run my tank with bacteria and carbon, there is no point. I have had much better success with my current setup then my old ones.
The sump looks good to me. I have one baffle in my sump to keep the water level consistent for my skimmer. Since I started dosing bacteria to my tank, my skimmer foams like crazy and is pulling out more gunk than before.
My 2 cents.


Thanks for that Ryan. That pretty much sums up my point of why I am so hesitant with the fuge idea.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jeffs_little_ocean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2010 at 12:45pm

I agree with Ryan that you dont need a fuge to have a sucessful tank. But if you have fish that enjoy eating live food, and you have a sump with some extra space in it (a place for pods to grow without predation) why not have a fuge? Plus its kind of fun to look into the fuge and see all the life. Well at least I think so. My 2 cents.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote P.Kapp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2010 at 2:07pm
^ +1. if having a fuge means keeping my mandarin and other fish fat and happy the way they are, why not?..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2010 at 3:24pm
We could argue all day as to which method does a better job, but it really comes down to what you are planning to keep and how you want it to look. It's easy for us sit here at our computers and talk about which system is better in a particular situation.
We would probably all agree that some of our best research is to see a few systems, talk to the owners and then take what we like from each of them. A dedicated hobbyist can make any system work. Have fun.Smile


Edited by Mark Peterson - October 27 2010 at 3:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snowsrfr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2010 at 8:45pm
I too have teed off my return pump to feed my fuge. Tyler (tcfab) actually designed my sump this way and after his explanation sounded good to me. Maybe he'll chime in. I also like the ability of being able to dump return water to my fuge rather than just throttling back my pump. The argument that you don't get "dirty" water to feed a fuge is bogus IMHO. I have tons of pods, and other little critters growing in there. The skimmer is going to suck up every molecule of water that passes by on it's way to the return, so there's plenty of dirt to feed your macro.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tcfab Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2010 at 11:43pm
I have always liked the idea of feeding the fuge off the return pumps vs. feeding the fuge with one of the drain lines coming from the tank for two reasons. One is when you feed the fuge with water coming from the overflow it has air mixed in with the water (because of the durso) and it tends to gurgle inside the fuge, this tends to build up alot of salt creep all over. Second feeding it from the return makes for a much more quite sump because there is no gurgle. All of the above only works if you have a dedicated fuge chamber inside main sump or seperate from the main sump, not a pass through fuge.

Also Mark, I think baffles are very important depending on what type of filtration equipment is going to be installed in the sump. If you are going for a skimmerless tank then yeah you could probably get away with no baffles in the sump. But if someone is installing a skimmer inside there sump then it is very important that they install a baffle and have a dedicated skimmer chamber so the skimmer performs consistantly. Flucuating water levels can make a skimmer very hard to tune, if not impossible.

A sump can be very complex or pretty simple, it just depends on what is going in it.

Just my .02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jeffs_little_ocean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2010 at 12:20am
Originally posted by Snowsrfr Snowsrfr wrote:

I too have teed off my return pump to feed my fuge. Tyler (tcfab) actually designed my sump this way and after his explanation sounded good to me. Maybe he'll chime in. I also like the ability of being able to dump return water to my fuge rather than just throttling back my pump. The argument that you don't get "dirty" water to feed a fuge is bogus IMHO. I have tons of pods, and other little critters growing in there. The skimmer is going to suck up every molecule of water that passes by on it's way to the return, so there's plenty of dirt to feed your macro.
I just got done looking at the sump tyler made for you and all I can say is wow, that thing is amazing. that guy has some skills! lol
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2010 at 9:24am
I've heard that Tyler's work is awesome.Thumbs Up


Yes, bugs will grow almost anywhere, but I was trying to put forth the concept that the dirtier the water, the more prolific will be the algae and bug growth. Bugs love the leftover food that comes down the drain. And the larger the Refugium, the more pollution it will "eat" from the drain water. More bugs eating waste means less skimmate (or no need for a skimmer) which means less maintenance and more bugs ending up in the display. Does this make sense?

Oh and I forgot some other major benefits.
A larger Refugium is even more help at keeping nighttime pH elevated.Thumbs Up
More algae growth means there is more to be fed to the herbivorous fishes above (recyclingSmile).
Algae growth in the Refugium also inhibits algae in the display.
Sponge seems to do very well and undisturbed in a Refugium adds greatly to the overall health and stability of the system.
Need I go on?


Edited by Mark Peterson - October 28 2010 at 9:35am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ryan Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2010 at 10:20am
Originally posted by Mark Peterson Mark Peterson wrote:

I've heard that Tyler's work is awesome.Thumbs Up


Yes, bugs will grow almost anywhere, but I was trying to put forth the concept that the dirtier the water, the more prolific will be the algae and bug growth. Bugs love the leftover food that comes down the drain. And the larger the Refugium, the more pollution it will "eat" from the drain water. More bugs eating waste means less skimmate (or no need for a skimmer) which means less maintenance and more bugs ending up in the display. Does this make sense?

Oh and I forgot some other major benefits.
A larger Refugium is even more help at keeping nighttime pH elevated.Thumbs Up
More algae growth means there is more to be fed to the herbivorous fishes above (recyclingSmile).
Algae growth in the Refugium also inhibits algae in the display.
Sponge seems to do very well and undisturbed in a Refugium adds greatly to the overall health and stability of the system.
Need I go on?


Yes, please go on Mark.

Why is it that EVERY tank that I have seen that was gorgeous (to my eyes), does not run a refugium?

I don't keep ANY herbivorous fish. I don't need a food supply for something I don't have.
I dose my Alk at night and early morning, that keeps my PH elevated for me.
I don't have algae growth in my main tank that my snails can't take care of.

If people want to run a refugium, great. It isn't my tank. I tried refugiums in the past and they did their job. My tanks didn't look great but things weren't dying.

Since I have gone to a bacteria driven system, my corals grow much faster and their colors are 10x better.

There are many ways to keep a healthy tank. Some of us choose to go a different route then 95% of this club. Matt has chosen to dump the refugium, good for him. Let him and this thread be.


Edited by Ryan Thompson - October 28 2010 at 10:22am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jeffs_little_ocean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2010 at 10:40am
Originally posted by Ryan Thompson Ryan Thompson wrote:

Since I have gone to a bacteria driven system, my corals grow much faster and their colors are 10x better.
Ryan would you be willing to explain what you mean by a bacterial driven system in detail of exactly what it means and what it entails as fas as equipment, dosing, etc? Maybe start a new thread since this one is really about a sump. And maybe include some of the threads from your other sites. I think one of the reasons that 95% of us do things one way, is because most of us dont understand some of the new and better ways. Personally I would be really interested in learning about them. Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CapnMorgan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2010 at 10:50am
To some extent I agree with both of you. Yes refugiums work, are they mandatory? No. I think there are almost as many ways to have a successful reef aquarium as there are people who keep them. I also have to say my corals grow quite fast, and have great color even without dosing bacteria or carbon sources, but I have a large refugium that does it's job well, keeping nitrates in the range of .5-5ppm. Nothing to complain about there. It's sort of like the great skimmer debate. Can you do without one? If done right yes, will I ever do without one? Not on your life. Everyone has a different way of doing things, and as long as their animals are healthy, growing, and balance is maintained why should anyone say it's wrong to do it that way. After all if I wanted to be told 100 ways I run my tank wrong I'd be posting on Reef Central. LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luckedout Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2010 at 11:14am
I think refugiums provide another great source of filtration and they require very little maintenance so why not have one if you have the space. Ryan's system sounds like it works well but requires a more active tank maintenance schedule. Really it depends on how much work you want to put into your tank every day. I personally like my system to be more self sufficient with less input for me and the refugium is one way that I get away with this.

I think the sump looks great! I can't wait to see the system up and running!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2010 at 6:23pm
Originally posted by CapnMorgan CapnMorgan wrote:

After all if I wanted to be told 100 ways I run my tank wrong I'd be posting on Reef Central. LOL
Love it! LOL

Hey Ryan, I remember when you started in this hobby. "You've come a long way baby" Star Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ahanix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2010 at 9:14pm
Wow, I can't believe how many responses came out of this

As a final decision, I have decided to do away with the refugium idea for the time being. I am going to try pushing my tank forward with other methods, and will post my results from these methods after my tank build is complete.

Thanks everyone for the helpful responses, I feel like there will be a never ending battle for fuge or no fuge, it's just like the mac vs pc debate, it's something that will never end, even though they will both get you to the same endpoint.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ejcatmul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 24 2010 at 4:18am

Man there is sure a big difference in the structural components of your old DIY stand and your new purchased stand. Are those 1x2 supports? Hard to imagine that is enough support for a 40 Breeder? I have been thinking about getting a different stand, one that I could use a 20L or even a 29 gallon. I am gonna have to get in touch with you about plumbing and copy what you have done. I find it's much easier to find someone who has worked out all the kinks and then just replicate their design. Thanks for saving me countless hours of frustration... You should charge for this type of service...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ejcatmul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2010 at 5:30am
I just bought your exact stand but then black pine model from John. I hope it will be here this Friday. Do you think I could fit a 29 gallon as a sump in the stand? I know that I will be very limited in getting things in and out of the sump area. Just wanted your opinion on that stand. Should I just pick up a 20 L and sell my 29AGA.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ahanix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2010 at 8:31pm
as far as space goes, I think the 20 L was just about perfect, enough room in the stand to move stuff around, if I put much more in there, I wouldn't have any room to put my electrical stuff safely in there.

Also, you will need to pull the middle brace out to drop the sump in there, theres only 4 small nails holding it in, so its easy to put back on after the sump is in place.

Also, I would suggest cutting some linoleum, or getting some tarp to put in the bottom to protect the bottom wood.

Another thing worth mentioning is that I placed a couple 2x4's under the center of the stand to make sure the bottom didn't have too much pressure on it, might have been unnecessary, but it certainly made me feel better
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