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cloudy white water

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    Posted: December 03 2010 at 2:22pm
my 75 reef is miserably cloudy as of two days ago and i'm getting worried. i did a 10 gallon water change yesterday and i'm about to do a 20 gallon water change. 

i stopped dosing my tank about a week ago cause i ran out of solution and i'm broke. could this be related?

i also use cheato and feather calurpa in separate chambers in my sump. the feather calurpa has shown no signs of going sexual but maybe i just don't know what i'm looking for

any help or suggestions?

thank you!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SGH360 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2010 at 2:36pm
Cloudy water is usually when Calurpa has gone sexual, how are your corals and fishes doing?
 
What are the parameters of your tank?
 
Can you provide full tank pictures?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jake Pehrson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2010 at 3:12pm

I would do a large water change up to 50% if possible.  Start running carbon.  Skim heavy.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote will Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2010 at 10:30pm
i just got home from work, the lights are off except the lunars and it's looking a lot worseCry

this is a photo i took on my phone earlier today:


i also found white snot like slime on my chaetomorpha and in the aquarium sock. my buddy suggested that it might be a dead cucumber... i have 3 of them but all are accounted for and are still moving around on my sand bed.

the fish seem fine, not breathing heavily or anything so i think they are ok on 02, but the corals seem pretty pissed. my monties are not as colorful, my red mushrooms did not open up at all today but the rics and zoos i have did. the other sps corals seem fine...

i'll do a 50% water change then in the morning if you think that'd be best


Edited by will - December 03 2010 at 10:32pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote will Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2010 at 10:31pm
oh and i did add quite a bit of carbon last night
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote will Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2010 at 10:50pm

i just took a picture of the chamber with the feather calurpa in it. i thought it was super rare for feather calurpa to go sexual but this picture shows that some of the leaves a going white and there is all this stringy nastyness coming off of it. 

i riped it all out of my tank to be safe. i still have some in my 125 if i decide i wanna put some back in it 


Edited by will - December 03 2010 at 10:51pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nick801 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2010 at 11:10pm
could maybe just a bacteria bloom? if your corals and fish look fine I wouldn't worry too much. it will eventually clear up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote will Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2010 at 12:35am
just tested the water and nitrites and nitrates are 0 but the pH has dropped to 7.8

what causes bacterial blooms? how long do they last? and how harmful can they be?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nick801 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2010 at 12:39am
With the PH drop I'm really leaning toward Bacterial Bloom Now =)

Bacterial Blooms - Explained

Every fishkeeper has experienced a bacterial bloom at some point. They are common in new set-ups which are cycling, but can happen at any time. The water goes cloudy, almost like someone has poured a drop of milk into the tank, and no matter how many water changes you do, it doesn't go away. Sound familiar?

I hope to explain here exactly what a bacterial bloom is, the effect it can have, how to treat it and how to prevent it.


The Nitrogen Cycle

To fully understand about bacterial blooms, a knowledge of the Nitrogen Cycle is required. If you are unsure of the Nitrogen Cycle or don't know what it is, it may be helpful to read the linked topic below first. This is particularly relevant if you have recently set up the tank, as the cloudiness is most likely an indication of other problems.

http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=271928


What is a Bacterial Bloom?

There are 2 types of bacteria at work in our tanks:-

Autotrophic Bacteria - Bacteria capable of synthesizing its own food from inorganic substances, using light or chemical energy. Our beneficial filter bacteria are autotrophs.

Heterotrophic Bacteria - Bacteria that cannot synthesize its own food and is dependent on complex organic substances for nutrition. The heterotrophs in our aquariums mineralise the organic waste (break down the uneaten food, fish waste, dead plant matter etc into ammonia).

Contrary to popular belief, it is commonly the heterotrophs which are seen in our bacterial blooms, not our trusted autotroph nitrifiers.

It is the heterotrophs which are primarily responsible for creating the "bio-film" (slimy residue found on the tank walls and ornaments) which builds up in our aquariums.

The heterotrophs are generally bigger than the autotrophs and therefore don't attach themselves to surfaces with the same ease. They also reproduce much more quickly. Heterotrophs can reproduce in around 15 - 20 minutes, whereas autotrophs can take up to 24 hours to reproduce.

In a newly set-up aquarium, the heterotrophs get to work quicker than the autotrophs, causing the 'cycling bloom' we so often see. Blooms are almost certainly heterotrophic if they are caused by a build up of organic waste in the substrate, which most, if not all, are.

Bacterial blooms are common in tanks with apparently no organics present (for example, where all that is in the tank is water and ammonia for a fishless cycle). This is caused by the dechlorination of the water suddenly enabling the water to support bacterial populations. The heterotrophs immediately get to work on the organics in the water itself. The severity of the bloom and even whether a bloom happens at all is dependant upon the level of organics contained in the water supply.

Our autotroph nitrifiers are strictly aerobic (require oxygen), but the heterotrophs can be facultative anaerobic (they can switch between aerobic and anaerobic function depending on their environment). Therefore the heterotrophs in the substrate will be in their anaerobic state and breaking down the organic waste into ammonia, but if they bloom up into the water column, they will switch to their aerobic form and will start to convert the ammonia back to nitrite, although very inefficiently. The heterotrophs are around 1,000,000 times less efficient at ammonia oxidisation than our beneficial autotrophs as the heterotrophs are not true nitrifiers.


The Effects of a Bacterial Bloom

Most of the bacteria in the aquarium are aerobic as it is a oxygen dominated environment, and these bacteria require lots of oxygen. When the heterotrophic bacteria bloom into the water column and switch to their aerobic state, this is a big drain on the oxygen content of the water. Oxygen depravation is the only risk to the fish which i am aware of during a bacterial bloom, as the heterotrophs themselves are harmless to fish, so good advice is to increase aeration! :good:

To help you to understand why bacterial blooms occur, overfeeding ,dead fish or dead plant matter will cause a rise in the reproduction of the heterotrophs in order to break down the organic waste, they re-produce too quickly to be able to attach themselves to a surface and this causes a bacterial bloom. As the ammonia production increases due to the increased mineralisation, the nitrifiers are slow to catch up (as i said above) and so you see an ammonia spike until the autotrophs reproduce enough to take care of it. Contrary to popular belief, bacterial blooms cause an ammonia spike, not the other way around.

It is unclear whether the autotrophic nitrifiers ever bloom into the water column or if they simply multiply too slowly to cause this effect.


Treatment and Prevention of Bacterial Blooms

A thorough gravel vac will certainly help the situation, as will trying not to overfeed. Also, increase aeration as I noted above. Water changes will probably not clear the cloudiness as when you remove the free-floating heterotrophic bacteria, the others will reproduce more to compensate. Given the reproduction rate of the heterotrophs, it would require a 50% water change every 15 - 20 minutes just to stop the bloom getting worse, and even more if you want to make any progress towards clearing the bloom.

However, water changes won't exacerbate the situation as it will be heterotrophs (which are producing ammonia) which are removed from the water column via the water change. A water change will remove virtually no nitrifying autotrophic bacteria from the tank at all as 99% of the nitrifiers are housed in the filter, not in the water column. Water changes are not essential in clearing bacterial blooms, as left alone, they will usually dissipate within a matter of days.

Reducing the amount of organic waste in your tank is the ultimate solution to treating a bacterial bloom, and avoiding a build up of organic waste in the tank is the best way to prevent a bloom. The best way to do this is to maintain a regular aquarium husbandry routine involving water changes and substrate vaccuuming.

As I said above, blooms are common in tanks with apparently no organic waste present, most commonly when only water and ammonia are in the tank for a fishless cycle. In this case, there are few easy ways to remove the organics from the water, and so my best suggestion is to sit it out and wait. Water changes with purified water would help as it would dilute the concentration of organics in the water. Reverse Osmosis water would be ideal in this situation, however i would suggest that patience is the cheaper and more environmentally friendly option.

A bloom in an established tank indicates that there is a problem which has allowed a build-up of organic waste, usually in the substrate. This can be caused by excess dead plant matter, over-feeding which leaves food lying around the tank, or leaving dead fish in the tank. None of these are desirable in an aquarium and a bloom in your established tank will certainly indicate one or more of these causes present in the tank. If you experience a bloom in an established tank, improve your husbandry.




Edited by Nick801 - December 04 2010 at 12:50am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2010 at 1:27am
I can tell from the pictures it's not the Caulerpa. If you still have it, put it back in.

I didn't read Nicks long post, sorry. I've helped many hobbyists stop bacterial blooms. That it is this is a pretty good possibility, but first we need to know the Alk and Ca levels? Stopping dosing could be a problem. What were you dosing that you ran out of?

The most reliable and usually easiest thing to kill off bacteria without hurting anything else is a UV Sterilizer, though turning up the Ozone also works. A 50% water change may work but it's usually a waste of time because within a few days the bacterial bloom could come back.




Edited by Mark Peterson - December 04 2010 at 1:36am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote will Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2010 at 1:58pm
you guys must have been right about the bacterial bloom. it cleared up on sunday and is looking good again. 

Nick mentioned they usually begin in established tanks because of poor husbandry. am i feeding my tank way too much then? i usually throw in a cube a frozen food in the morning and one at night.

what else do you think i might be slacking on?

also, the calcium did drop to about 300 ppm but i bought some solution and am slowly working it and the pH back up slowly. 

thank you for your help Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CapnMorgan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2010 at 8:13pm
What is your alk?You'll want to watch it as you raise your Ca. As Ca is raised Alk will start to trend down so be prepared to dose it as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote downhill_biker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2010 at 8:28pm
I too didn't read Nick's long post on bacterial blooms. While info such as cal and alk might be helpful there are two things that are most important when something like this happens. First add as much oxygen and humanly possible. Put in air stones, crank up the skimmer, run air lines to powerheads, ect. Just get oxygen in there. The way that a bacterial bloom does the most damage is my using up oxygen faster than fish, corals, and inverts can. They basically suffocate. Second add carbon, which you did. This will help with any death or die off that you might experience. Too often people fix the original problem only to find their ammonia and nitrates going up because some coral died or a fish died, and then they have more problems.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PhotoGlen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2010 at 11:37pm
I had a real bad "Cloud" problem after about 6 months of setting up my 90gal. tank.  All my parameters looked good and I just could not figure it out.  Mark suggested I do the UV sterilizer and within 24 hours the tank was noticeably better.  I also used Chemipure and Filter Floss to clean up any die off.  Now 6 months latter my tank is doing great.  Thanks to all who helped in my time of need,  Clap Glen. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nick801 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 08 2010 at 1:08am
dangit, you guys are lazy just read the post it will take you 2 minutes then you will know what is up next time it happens to you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jdskidawg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 08 2010 at 10:18am
Thumbs Up you tell them Nick
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote downhill_biker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 09 2010 at 12:01am
Nick, I already know whats up when it happens...but if it will make you happy I will read it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 09 2010 at 10:03am
Originally posted by will will wrote:

you guys must have been right about the bacterial bloom. it cleared up on sunday and is looking good again. 
Nick mentioned they usually begin in established tanks because of poor husbandry. am i feeding my tank way too much then? i usually throw in a cube a frozen food in the morning and one at night.
what else do you think i might be slacking on?
also, the calcium did drop to about 300 ppm but i bought some solution and am slowly working it and the pH back up slowly. 
thank you for your help Smile
The wonderful thing about Mother Nature is that given time, she can take care of herself. Smile

If you wonder if you are feeding too much, you are. From what I see in the pics, I'd feed only 1/2 cube per day. How can I tell just by looking at the pics? I've being doing this a long time. Believe me, I can tell.

Stop dosing whatever it is you are dosing to increase pH
. You could be killing the tank with that action.
Next:
You are not "slacking", you just need to update your knowledge of reefkeeping. I see that you mention pH but still have not told us the Alkalinity level. Please read the Reefkeeping Tips thread linked below. Skip past the first post about setting up a tank and go straight to the part about the major importance of Alk and Ca. Then come back here to let us know what those levels are. (Eventually, you will learn to ignore pH. Sounds crazy but it's true.Wink)

Please tell us what you have been dosing and are currently dosing. This is important from the standpoint of our giving you proper help and for your education on what is best for your tank.

Oh and Nick, I meant no disrespect, I originally skimmed the text and saw that it did give good information that I agreed with. Now that we know for sure that this was a bacterial bloom, it would be good for everyone to go back and read it. Smile


Edited by Mark Peterson - December 09 2010 at 10:15am
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As MY article wasn't sited, I'll do it myself. Here is a link to MY article written by ME.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DLindquist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2012 at 10:27am
Originally posted by Backtotropical Backtotropical wrote:

As MY article wasn't sited, I'll do it myself. Here is a link to MY article written by ME.



Sounded good Nick
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