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Davidwillis 
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 Topic: PH and Alkalinity
Posted: December 15 2010 at 11:35am |
I would like to have parameters more like a natural reef:
cal: 420-460 alk: 7dkh salinity: 35 ppt PH: 8.0-8.3
My parameters
cal: 460 alk: 10 salinity 35 ppt PH 7.9-8.0
It seems like the only way I can get my PH up is to raise my alkalinity. Just from playing around, to get my ph to 8.3 I need an alk of about 13-14 dkh, and if I have never had my alk at 7 dkh , but I would guess my ph would go way down with that. I do have good ciruculation in both my tank and my sump, as well as a protein skimmer.
Any ideas on why I can't match? Right now I don't see any real problem with keeping my alk at 10-11, but if I ever decide to try out the vodka dosing I hear you will get tip burn with your alk that high. It isn't a big deal to me, but I would like to understand why. I don't have a test for my magnesium, maybe that could be low and causing it...?
I use instant ocean salt, and I don't know if it has magnesium. Maybe I should use reef crystals?
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Jeffs_little_ocean
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Posted: December 15 2010 at 1:37pm |
Afew ways I have raised Ph with out raising Alk are:
1. Pointing the powerheds up in the tank and having massive surface aggitation.
2. Adding more macro to the sump and increasing the light cycle.
3. Dripping Kalk at night (although this will also slightly raise alk)
Also I was talking to Jerry at MA yesterday and he was saying that in the wintertime when we have the windows closed, and we are in the house breathing O2, it elevates CO2 levels in the house and allthough we really dont notice it, It does can significantly impact your tanks ability to exchange the gases, thus increasing your tanks CO2 and dropping PH. One remidy is running tubing from an outslde air vent to the air intake of your skimmer. Ive never done this but have read that this works good to raise tank PH in the wintertime.
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Davidwillis
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Posted: December 15 2010 at 3:50pm |
Thanks jeff.
I can't do any more with surface aggitation without splashing water out of my tank
I have about a 2 gal area of macro with 12 hours of light. I guess I could increase that some...
I have never dripped kalk (calcium hydroxid Ca(OH)2), or even used it. It makes sense that would raise the ph without rasing the alk, if done slowly the corals would use up the alk added.
That comment about CO2 is interesting. My house is small, and fairly well sealed off. I bet the CO2 levels are much higher than outside. My protein skimmer is a CC using two tetra luft air pumps, so I would have to put the pumps outside... I wonder if that would cool down the tank when it is -20 deg?
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: December 15 2010 at 7:35pm |
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All good points.
I wouldn't worry too much about this.
Dripping Kalkwasser does add Alk and Ca, but the pH effect is small and short lived, mainly effective at bumping it up at night.
What's the current nighttime pH? leveling out the day-night swing either with dripping Kalk at night or more light on the Refugium or both, would be the simplest thing to do and would bring the greatest benefit for the effort.
Our tanks are not the ocean. In my limited understanding, it does not make a lot of sense to try to exactly replicate the ocean because the very nature of our closed systems creates a lot of conditions that would not be acceptable in the wild.
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Davidwillis
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Posted: December 15 2010 at 9:30pm |
Thanks Mark,
I don't have a pH monitor, but I have tested pH with my test kit at all times of the night and day with no real noticeable swing, it is usually just about 8.0, sometimes just below, and sometimes just above, but it isn't lower at night than during the day from what I have seen.
Like I say I am not too worried about it, just wondering how people do it (get the pH 8.0-8.3, and keep the alkalinity 7-8 dkh). Especially those adding bacteria and vodka.
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arthuriv
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Posted: December 16 2010 at 1:31am |
See if this website helps at all: http://www.aquavitro.com/Products/balance.htmlI've haven't tried this stuff yet. I own it but haven't tried it yet. My pH stays pretty high. I use their other products and really like them. If you do decide you want to try using this stuff let me know I can get any of their products or other seachem products from one of my suppliers same day.
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Quality Marines Aquaculturing & Captive Breeding program!
Presented by Ashley & Chelsea from Reef On
Thursday 6 Oct 2016
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: December 16 2010 at 11:27am |
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But you are already doing the Hiatt system. The only other person that I know of that was using it was Burt Fessler and he isn't using it now.
Your tank's nutrient levels are already low. I'd be extremely careful when combining these two methods/systems.
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Davidwillis
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Posted: December 16 2010 at 5:36pm |
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Thanks Mark... yes, the reason I am concerned is that they are both a low nutrient system, and with the vodka method people get burnt tips on there corals if the alkalinity is too high (above 9 dkh). So I am concerned that I may have the same problem if I let the alkalinity get too high. But at the same time I would like to keep my pH at 8.0-8.3, which seems hard to achieve without keeping my alkalinity above 10. I have not noticed any problems, so I may be concerned for no reason...
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: December 16 2010 at 6:20pm |
With pH being a function of the amount of CO2 in the water, I would go back to basics and fiddle with some things to see the effect. I know you love to tinker.  Have fun and let us know if you come up with a solution.
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Davidwillis
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Posted: December 16 2010 at 8:14pm |
hmmm... well maybe I could put a 20 gal tank 5 ft above my tank, then pump the return into it. Then when it is full have it dump the entire 20 gal into my tank (while mixing it with air, or oxygen). Of course I would have to modify my overflow to handle that much flow....LOL
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Davidwillis
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Posted: December 16 2010 at 8:46pm |
On a more serious note, is there an easy way to measure the CO2 in my house, and outside? I would like to know how much higher it is in my house than outside. It would be interesting to see the CO2 to O2 ratio for in my aquarium, in my house, and outside. If there are huge differences that would give me an idea on where the best place to work is. If they are all the same, then it would mean my gas exchange is about as good as it can get. And I would have to find another way to get the CO2 out.
Also, with huge amounts of macro algae, do you still need the high alkalinity to get the pH up, or does that use up the CO2 enough to maintain a pH of 8.2 with an alkalinity of 7? I know that would not be an option with my setup, because I don't think I have the nutrients to support large amounts of macro algae, but I am curious to know if that would work.
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: December 17 2010 at 4:22am |
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The surge you get from that kind of device is awesome.
A friend of ours and former WMAS member, Jon Finch is a Chemical Engineer. He used to be very active here. He studied it and as I remember the CO2 level outside was at least 20% lower than inside. He ran his skimmer airline outside and bumped up the pH by a point or two. His posts about it here may still be available in a search.
later with more
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Davidwillis
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Posted: December 17 2010 at 8:17am |
Thanks mark, that is very good information.... I will by experimenting.... 
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Shane H
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Posted: December 17 2010 at 9:50am |
I can confirm that pH levels in your aquarium can decline during the winter months as a result of your house being closed up tight. If you can stand the cold, simply open a window near the tank and wait an hour - you pH will increase noticeably.
As I recall, pulling outside air through your skimmer was not extremely effective at elevating the pH and was not a solution for this "winter" pH problem. Although it couldn't hurt, I don't think it would solve your problem. A large portion of the gas exchange occurs at the surface and not through contact with your skimmer bubbles.
I think to elevate the pH without the use of kalkwasser (to avoid raising alk) you're going to need to improve the ventilation and possibly brave some cold by cracking a window!
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: December 17 2010 at 12:27pm |
Shane remembered it better than I did. Regarding Macroalgae, I've heard it posed by some knowledgeable people that the simple action of the splashing of water down the drain and the extended surface area of the sump is most of the advantage to nighttime pH and that Macroalgae adds only a little more benefit. In the last few years I have had more than a few simple tanks without sump/Refugiums and just ensured plenty of water flow from bottom to agitated surface. I am tending to agree with those people. The problem with my advice here on this topic is that I stopped caring about pH many years ago and don't bother testing it. Have you spoken with Burt about his experience with the Hiatt system? If you don't mind, give us a look at the surface water of your tank and sump. I'm not saying that the present pH is a problem at all, just trying to help.
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Davidwillis
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Posted: December 17 2010 at 1:16pm |
Thanks Shane... I don't know if my wife would let me open the window...LOL, and the sump tank/sump is in the middle of the house. I have some ideas though...
Mark, I have not talked to anyone else about the Hiatt system, it seems to be working very well for me. But you know me, I like to play around with stuff. I am guessing my system is just fine with the alkalinity at 10 dhk, and the pH at 8.0.
Here are some pics of the surface of my tank, and sump. I know the sump could use a little more agitation, one of my pumps died (although I didn't notice any pH change by loosing the pump).
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: December 17 2010 at 1:21pm |
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I can't see any problems. Just keep doing what you are doing.
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