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cyano bacteria, HLLE

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PDoug View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PDoug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2011 at 8:10pm
Okay I have a simple mind if your topoff water   contains nitrate I am going to make a shot in the dark and say that like me you are using tap water. If that is the case you will have cyano blooms with the seasons as the reservoir freezes you will have different water quality then when the snow melts and again after the water table goes to normal summer levels it all changes again. (In the event you are using RO ignore this) that is the reason everyone uses RO it provides a consistency tap water can not. A stable reef tank is a happy reef tank someday I will use RO until then I will be annoyed with seasonal blooms of cyano lol
(307)679-7898 Phillip Douglass 75 Gallon Reef Tank
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davidwillis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2011 at 10:13pm
Originally posted by bfessler bfessler wrote:

I just found this thread and I have been using the Hiatt system for 3 years so maybe I can help you understand a little about how it works. The TriBase Carbon is used because of the extreme amount of surface area it contains. The bacteria live in the carbon bed but don't live off the carbon. The TriBase carbon doesn't need to be replaced, in fact I have been using the same carbon for 3 years. It is important to properly rinse the carbon but once colonized all you have to do is keep it free from debris. I occasionally rinse the carbon in water I am doing a water change with. Don't rinse it in fresh water.
 
I gather that your system is a biocube or Nano of some type and that you set it up in October. There aren't many details as to how you set up the Hiatt System though. Did you use a canister filter for the Tribase Carbon and Calcite (called PH Rock by Hiatt) or did you add the carbon to the built in filter in the Nano? Did you start with any live rock, sand or water and how quickly did you add livestock to the system? Even though the Hiatt system will control the nitrogen cycle from day one it is important for the tank to mature before adding delicate corals especially SPS. A tank shot and some close ups of the rock-work and corals would be helpful in determining what is going on in the tank.
 
If you're interested in my builds and experience with the Hiatt system you can read these threads. Another Way (My Nano Build) http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=32518&KW=Hiatt&PN=1
 
I would also be happy to help with any other questions if you still want to try the Hiatt System. Currently I am using more traditional filtration since moving to Eagle Mountain but if done correctly the Hiatt System can be used successfully in a reef environment with all types of coral including SPS.

Thanks, I will look at your builds.  Did you have any problems with all that activated carbon (0.1667 lbs per gallon of tank water, I have 8 lbs in my 29 gal tank because I have about 50 gal of water), and HLLE, or any other problems?  I think it will be fine once the activated carbon wears out and it is just bacteria surface area.

Hear is part of what they say about the TBC carbon on  the Hiatt web site :


Tri Base has a greater available surface for bacteria than any other media on the market. In addition, Tri Base contains available carbon which is necessary for the bacteria to complete the nitrogen cycle. The carbon is used as a permanent bed for the nitrification bacteria and will support a far greater population than bio balls, silica sand or others.

My system is a 29 gal tank with a sump, protein skimmer, and some macro algae.  I put the carbon in a 4" abs tube about 4' high.  I didn't use the PH rock, but instead run it through a protein skimmer, and added a lot of circulation in the sump for gas exchange.  From what I understand you don't need the PH rock if you get good gas exchange... But my pH has always seemed low at 8.0, even though my alk is 10.  So maybe that is why, but it has not changed since I removed they carbon.  I startded with Utah rock, and oolitic sand.  And seeded with a little live sand and live rock.  I now have lots of worms, band bugs, etc.  I added fish and lps corals the same day I put in the right now, which was a couple weeks after I had the water in the tank.  I then seeded the tank a few weeks later with the live sand and rock.  I added the SPS corals about a month after the tank was set up.

Here is my tank thread which has much more information and pictures.


And here is a full tank pic. this is an older pictures before the cyano showed up.  I will get new ones tomorrow.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davidwillis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2011 at 10:17pm
Originally posted by PDoug PDoug wrote:

Okay I have a simple mind if your topoff water   contains nitrate I am going to make a shot in the dark and say that like me you are using tap water. If that is the case you will have cyano blooms with the seasons as the reservoir freezes you will have different water quality then when the snow melts and again after the water table goes to normal summer levels it all changes again. (In the event you are using RO ignore this) that is the reason everyone uses RO it provides a consistency tap water can not. A stable reef tank is a happy reef tank someday I will use RO until then I will be annoyed with seasonal blooms of cyano lol

I actually do use an RO system, but my water is from a spring with a TDS of 600-700 ppm, and nitrates at about 30.  RO units are not great at removing nitrates if the TDS levels are high (it is one of the last things taken out).  So after running it through the RO, my TDS is 8-10, and my nitrates are about 15.  I top off once a day, but never see any nitrates when I test my tank water.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PDoug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 31 2011 at 2:49pm
Well dang had hoped for it to be a quick fix for you like mine is sigh . I never have had to use spring water but I did use well water and it was chock full of good stuff lol I had to dose soda but not calcium and corals grew like mad . Your troubles seem to be more in need of Marks line of thinking lol
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davidwillis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 31 2011 at 3:10pm

Maybe I should just use my spring water....

Here are some pictures taken today.

















Edited by Davidwillis - January 31 2011 at 3:10pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PDoug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 31 2011 at 3:28pm
Ozone is possibility though I know nothing about it or its uses worth researchingmaybe I am not to big into most technical issues unless it involves firearms sorry lol Oh and I would stick with your RO too

Edited by PDoug - January 31 2011 at 3:37pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bfessler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2011 at 7:53pm
Originally posted by Davidwillis Davidwillis wrote:

Thanks, I will look at your builds.  Did you have any problems with all that activated carbon (0.1667 lbs per gallon of tank water, I have 8 lbs in my 29 gal tank because I have about 50 gal of water), and HLLE, or any other problems?  I think it will be fine once the activated carbon wears out and it is just bacteria surface area.

My system is a 29 gal tank with a sump, protein skimmer, and some macro algae.  I put the carbon in a 4" abs tube about 4' high.  I didn't use the PH rock, but instead run it through a protein skimmer, and added a lot of circulation in the sump for gas exchange.  From what I understand you don't need the PH rock if you get good gas exchange... But my pH has always seemed low at 8.0, even though my alk is 10.  So maybe that is why, but it has not changed since I removed they carbon.  I started with Utah rock, and oolitic sand.  And seeded with a little live sand and live rock.  I now have lots of worms, band bugs, etc.  I added fish and LPS corals the same day I put in the right now, which was a couple weeks after I had the water in the tank.  I then seeded the tank a few weeks later with the live sand and rock.  I added the SPS corals about a month after the tank was set up.
 
 
I used quite a bit less than the amount of TBPC that Hiatt recommends. I was communicating with Stan Hunter from about.com who also uses the Hiatt system and he said that you don't need as much as stated especially if your running a reef and not a FOWLER. In my 28 Gallon I ran between 2 and 3 pounds and I stocked the tank lightly at first and didn't add any SPS till the coraline was growing well. My thoughts was that by using less of the carbon and stocking lightly at first the RN bacteria would take care of my biological filtration but still leave enough nutrients to establish the traditional bacteria and bio-filtration in the tank. That way should something happen to my Hiatt filtration the other would compensate and vise versa. It actually worked very well and I still use the Canister filter with TBPC on my frag tank.
 
I quickly read through your build thread and was wondering if you back-flush the carbon in your PVC? One thing that I have found is that keeping the carbon clean is very important in keeping the bacteria populations up and nutrient levels down. I rinse the carbon in my canisters at least monthly and find quite a bit of accumulated ditrus in the carbon despite the pre filter media.
 
The Calcite or PH Rock is used both to raise the PH, though not by much, and supply additional calcium and alkalinity to the system, much like a calcium reactor. I'm not sure how effective it is at this and don't use it myself any longer. I also found that you don't need to break the surface of the water with the return and that simply pointing the return toward the surface to create a lot of turbulence was sufficient for gas exchange. This may be partly because I used less of the TBPC but I  never raised the return above the water line as directed. I did have difficulty keeping PH over 8 after about 9 months. To combat this I started using Kalkwasser in my top-off water which took a while to get right but now that I have the DIY Kalk Reactor it works great and my ph is steady at 8.4. I don't have to dose nearly as much calcium or alk with the kalk reactor.
 
I also recently had a battle with cyano and added BRS BioPellets in a Two Little Fishies phosban reactor to my sump. The directions stated not to expect any significant changes for 4 weeks while the bacteria colonized the media but my Cyano disappeared within 10 days of adding the reactor. It may be in part because I am still running the TBPC in the canister filter from my old nano and the biopellets are a carbon source. The RN bacteria multiply so quickly that if they use the biopellets as a filter bed in sped up the efficiency of the biopellets but for whatever reason my cyano is gone now as well as a diatom bloom I was having in the nano plumbed into the frag tank and sump.
 
My feelings about the Hiatt system and RN Bacteria is that it's great for bypassing the traditional 6 weeks or so of cycling a tank if you don't have fully cured live rock sand and water and allows you to put fish and a few corals in the tank from day one. It would be an excellent system for a Fish Only tank where you don't have to worry about providing enough nutrients for corals, filter feeders and macro but for a reef it's a little tricky balancing exactly how much TBPC to the bioload and I prefer to use it as a secondary biological filtration material. Also for larger systems the size of the canister filter needed to hold all the carbon makes it difficult to keep the equipment in a typical stand.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davidwillis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 04 2011 at 10:35am
Thanks for the information...

I never did rinse the carbon, however it was almost fluidized by the up-flow of water (that could have added to my carbon dust).  How did you rinse it out?

My pH stays right on 8.0 according to my ph probe, even after removing the carbon.  Although I just tested and it is 8.1 (I even turned off my skimmer yesterday to see what it did).





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bfessler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 04 2011 at 11:40am
Because I had my carbon in a canister filter it was easier to rinse. When doing a water change I just emptied the carbon into the old water and swished it around then replaced it in the filter. For systems with a filter like yours it is recommended to plumb the supply so that it can be reversed using ball valves. In other words you pump water into the exit port. I've seen setups plumbed like this that allow the back-flushed water to be emptied into a bucket for water changes. You just reverse the flow and empty the back-flushed water into a bucket then replace the amount of water removed and your done.
 
Carbon shouldn't be fluidized. Because it is relatively soft it will create grains that are released into the system. Carbon should be firmly packed and then sufficient force through the filter to keep it from tumbling. I am pretty sure if you had good flow through the carbon it wasn't tumbling in the filter but if it was it could cause issues with carbon fines.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davidwillis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 04 2011 at 12:15pm
Thanks... That should be easy to setup.  If I put the the carbon back in I will set it up like that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 06 2011 at 10:03pm
Burt, are you running a Hiatt system now?
Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks:
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bfessler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2011 at 7:43am
I still have the canister filter and carbon going which is maintaining the RN Bacteria but it's only as a supplement to the Skimmer, DSB, RDP Refugium and BioPellets. I figure if I need to set up a QT quickly I can just move the canister filter to the QT.
 
I was running the Hiatt system on a 28 Gallon Nano and a 55 Gallon Frag system but when I upgraded the system to a 100 gallon frag tank and then plumbed in the 28 to this system I don't have the capacity for the Hiatt system and went a more traditional route. 
 


Edited by bfessler - February 07 2011 at 7:49am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davidwillis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2011 at 11:13am
The HLLE seems to be getting better, but the cyano is getting worse and starting to grow on the rock, and corals.  And the macro algae has not started growing yet, it is just getting more purple ,maybe it is getting covered in cyano, but it doesn't look like cyano(it isn't stringy, it looks more like coraline algea on it)?  I have been leaving the lignt on the macro on 24/7.

ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate is all still zero.
Alk 8-9
cal 460
ph 8.1 (it is higher with the carbon out, it was 7.9-8.0 before)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bfessler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2011 at 11:35am

I had a  bout with Cyano a few weeks ago and added Bulk Reef Supplies BioPellets in a Two Little Fishise Phosban reactor. I was surprised how fast the Cyano disappeared. According to the literature it should take between 4 and 6 weeks to see any change but for me the Cyano was gone in under 10 days. I can't be sure but I believe the RN Bacteria uses the carbon source in the biopellets and quickly colonized the media. I noticed almost immediately an increase in the amount my skimmer was producing and had to dial it back to keep it form overflowing. I had the return from the reactor feed back near the skimmer input to pull out excess bacteria. The reactor has been running for almost a month now and I have been able to increase the amount I feed the fish and corals with no return of the Cyano.

I bought the smallest bag of biopellets from BRS http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/brs-bio-pellets.html and got the reactor from Marine Depot. http://www.marinedepot.com/Two_Little_Fishies_Phosban_Reactor_Phosphate_Reactors-Two_Little_Fishies-TL4311-FIFRISPR-vi.html
 
The media doesn't have to be replaced for 6 months to a year so despite the initial cost it's not too bad. BRS also has their own reactor but they are sold out at the moment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davidwillis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2011 at 11:56am
Thanks... I may need to give that a try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davidwillis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 14 2011 at 10:27pm
Just an update...  The HLLE is almost all better, but the cyano was getting really bad.  I don't have the money to get the biopellets/phosban reactor, so I did an antibiotic treatment.  I didn't want to do that, but it was getting really bad.  

The good news is that the cyano is all gone.  However I suspect it will come back if I don't figure out what the cause was.  

Since I took out the TBPC (the carbon with the RN bacteria) nitrate is about 2 ppm, and phosphate is now up to 0.47.  And my macro is not growing, just turning red.

Ammonia and nitrite are still zero, so the antibiotics did not kill it off to bad (I was worried about that). 

Burt, I wonder how the RN bacteria would do using BioPellets instead of the carbon.  Is there enough surface area on them for the bacteria?  I may start adding a little carbon back, but I am afraid that was the cause of the HLLE.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bfessler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 14 2011 at 11:04pm

I don't think that would cause the HLLE problem but I would make sure that the carbon doesn't tumble in the filter or just use a canister filter or media reactor for the carbon. I really like my canister filter because it makes it easy to clean the carbon when doing a water change. BRS has a pretty inexpensive media reactor for carbon or phosban.

I don't think the biopellets have a huge surface area but they have made a huge difference in the water quality of my tank. I am feeding more and have no signs of cyano or diatoms since adding the pellets. So far I am very happy with them.
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