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Thorn 
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 Topic: 40 Breeder as first reef
Posted: April 25 2011 at 11:32pm |
I'm getting started on my 40 Gal Breeder set up. I bought the tank and a 20 long for the sump. The 40 Gal is at MSM to be drilled. I thought I'd post the plans and see if anyone wants to give feedback before I spend much more money...
So here are the general plans:
The stand will be custom built by me. The plans for it and the sump are waiting to be finalized after I have the drilled tank in hand. I'll do a herbie with a durso on the secondary drain, both in the middle and through the bottom. There'll be one return through the back wall on one side. I'll have doors to access the sump on the front and both sides. (There is no such thing as too much access.) I don't plan on a canopy, and it will be in the front room, so I need the lighting to look presentable.
Lights: I want to stick with T5's. I’m looking at a 36 inch 4 bulb set up. I'll stick mostly to softies, no SPS anytime soon. I think I'd rather have light the full length rather than go with a 6x24 fixture. Here are the contenders:
1st choice so far - TEK 36 x 4 bulb. The down side is I don't think they look as attractive as the others, and I wonder about the "legs" to hold them off the tank. But I like what I read in the reviews of them. How is the fan noise on these?
2nd choice - Coralife Lunar 36 inch. I doubt the LED's add much value, but the form factor seems nice. It looks like it would be more attractive than the TEK, but how does it compare on performance to the TEK? Another good reason is I've found a couple of places that offer them in the $200 range, though I am not sure how reputable those sites are.
3rd choice - WavePoint. They look nice, but I haven't found much in the way of opinions one way or another on them.
Return Pump: I'll need a submersible, as there will not be room for an external in the stand. My favorite choice so far is a Via Aqua 2717. Second choice is a Mag Drive 7.
Skimmer/filtration. I'm going to go for as big a biological filtration area as I can fit in the sump. I also hope to have enough room in there to culture more live rock and sand to start other tanks. I'll have a skimmer for safety, but I'm still going back and forth over which to use. I am one who would like to go skimmer-less, but for a first reef I'll want one for a larger safety margin. I'd like to keep the footprint down, as I'd like more room for a refugeium in the sump.
Heater: I've always gone with two smaller heaters, so I'm looking at 2 100 watt submersible heaters. I'm wondering about the in-line heaters though. Does anyone use them?
I plan to use about 2 inches of live sand. I'll probably be looking for the Utah sand and rock to use as a base, then try to find a good "start" from someone.
Any other suggestions?
[Edited to remove garbage from punctuation I missed when I first posted-sorry.]
Edited by Thorn - April 26 2011 at 7:31pm
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: April 26 2011 at 12:16pm |
Nice write up so far. I didn't read the whole post but already see something. The safety drain will hopefully never be used, but when it does have water flowing down it, it means the primary drain got clogged. You don't want a Durso to silence the safety drain. You want it to be very noisy so you will hear it and realize that the main drain needs to be unclogged. MSM uses the ball valve method on all their installed tanks, but they don't bother with the safety drain. Neither do I. Simply put something in the way to block snails from slipping down it and the safety drain becomes obsolete. See the pic below. I'll keep reading now.. Lights are personal choice. Cost and PAR value being the other considerations. Speaking of safety, as was mentioned in another thread just today, not all the flow should come from a return pump. How much water flow will the overflow allow? The return pump is best that delivers just a little more than the overflow can handle. Then, when the system matures and some blockage grows the valve can be opened to let the full force of the pump push water up into the display. One 100 W heater is more than enough for 50 gals of water. The manufacturers try to get us to overdo it. When heaters go bad they mostly tend to stick in the on position. I'd probably use just a 50 or 75W heater so that if and when it does stick on, it will take a while before it cooks the tank. That usually gives you enough time to notice and unplug it. Feel free to call and come see my systems for comparison (if you haven't already) and to get some sand and rock. 
Edited by Mark Peterson - April 26 2011 at 12:31pm
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kellerexpress
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Posted: April 26 2011 at 1:52pm |
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As far as your lighting choices I would go with the tek. Teks don't have fans in their fixtures, unless you buy the tek elite. The swc 120 cone skimmer would be a good choice for your setup, the footprint is small, and it's very quiet. Although if you are planning on doing mostly just softies then you may be able to go skimmerless for a while and see how your tank does. Having a fuge will also help alot.
I would also recommend you save yourself some headaches and use dry rock, whether it be Utah rock or Marco rock or whatever, and then seed it with a couple pieces of live. You can avoid alot of pests this way.
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Adam Blundell
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Posted: April 26 2011 at 2:02pm |
Great to have you here. Excited to see how this goes.
Adam
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ksmart
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Posted: April 26 2011 at 3:29pm |
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Sounds awesome, +1 to "I would also recommend you save yourself some headaches and use dry rock, whether it be Utah rock or Marco rock or whatever, and then seed it with a couple pieces of live. You can avoid alot of pests this way. "
I also have a 40 breeder, you are more than welcome to comer over any time and check it out. (Learn from my mistakes haha)
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Thorn
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Posted: April 26 2011 at 7:45pm |
 Mark Peterson wrote:
...I didn't read the whole post but already see something. The safety drain will hopefully never be used, but when it does have water flowing down it, it means the primary drain got clogged. You don't want a Durso to silence the safety drain. You want it to be very noisy so you will hear it and realize that the main drain needs to be unclogged.
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Good point, that's a cheap alarm. So I'll delete the durso. This is the first Herbie drain I've done. I've done sumps on FW, but with less flow and no valve. I'll be doing the plumbing, not MSM. Is there any reason to use a ball valve rather than a gate valve? Easier to clear a clog, perhaps?
Mark Peterson wrote:
Feel free to call and come see my systems for comparison (if you haven't already) and to get some sand and rock.
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I'll plan to take you up on both the look and the sand and rock. The real world will prevent it until the weekend, though.
I was a bit lazy on the heater wattage. I just took an online calculater's word for the wattage. It's been long enough since since I last figured out the right size for heaters that I'm not going to trust my own opinion for a rule of thumb.
Thanks -
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Thorn
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Posted: April 26 2011 at 7:56pm |
kellerexpress wrote:
As far as your lighting choices I would go with the tek. Teks don't have fans in their fixtures, unless you buy the tek elite. The swc 120 cone skimmer would be a good choice for your setup, the footprint is small, and it's very quiet. Although if you are planning on doing mostly just softies then you may be able to go skimmerless for a while and see how your tank does. Having a fuge will also help alot. |
I like the reviews on the Tek. I may end up going with the Coralife just because I've seen some in local stores for prices close to the more popular online sources. If there is no big reason to prefer the Tek and the price is close, I may just support a LFS. I like to keep my money close, even if it isn't mine any more...
Part of the reason I've not been pushing too much on the skimmer is I figured I could wait a while while I cycle and get everything else running. I'll look at the SWC 120. The main concern I have now is leaving room in my sump for whatever I put in later.
kellerexpress wrote:
I would also recommend you save yourself some headaches and use dry rock, whether it be Utah rock or Marco rock or whatever, and then seed it with a couple pieces of live. You can avoid alot of pests this way. |
As you and others said, this is a good reason, as well a cost. If for some reason I don't go for Utah rock, I'll probably get dry rock from BRS.
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Thorn
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Posted: May 01 2011 at 7:07pm |
The 40 breeder came back Thursday. I also found a Remora skimmer cheap, and picked it up. With those in hand, I’ve started on the stand. I’ll add photos once it’s together enough to start looking like a stand. Right now it is mostly scattered around the garage in pieces. I went with a Coralife fixture and a Rio pump from the Aquarium. I also talked to Mark and got sand and Utah rock.
So, I’m debating the sump design for the 20 long. I want as large a refugium as possible, with a spillover to keep the level in the refugium fairly constant. I also want a large area for the return pump, with room for a skimmer. Finally, I like having a place where I can put filter media and make sure the water flows through it. So, here are two designs.
Inflow is in the near chamber, and the column is mostly to hold filter media. I have it set up to add egg crate for a floor, and media bags on top. When I run AC or other filter media, I like to send as much water as possible through it. This may be open except when I feel the reason to run a different filter media, such as polishing the water when the sand is disturbed. The remora would hang off the far end, with the return pump in the far corner. The nice thing is this could keep unwanted stuff from getting into the refugium. The bad is it could keep wanted stuff from getting into the refugium
Design 2:
In this one, the inflow would go straight into the refugium, with the filter media area between the skimmer/return pump. In both, I am keeping the return pump area fairly open, in part so I can change skimmers in the future if I want an in sump design.
Any thoughts?
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ejcatmul
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Posted: May 02 2011 at 4:28am |
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I would go with a more simple sump design and use a media reactor to push water through your media. BRS is prob your cheapest and best option for MR and carbon/GFO.
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"Noob"
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08TRDOFFROAD
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Posted: May 05 2011 at 2:45pm |
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Ryan Thompson
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Posted: May 05 2011 at 4:08pm |
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Get the tek fixtue. I wouldn't use a coralife or wavepoint. If you ever upgrade, you will want the tek instead.
Use a gate valve, not a ball valve on your drain. Ball valves are hard to dial in. Gate valves are a MUCH better choice! Trust me, I ran a herbie style drain for over 8 months. You will want a strainer on it like mark said. That way it doesn't clog.
Use 2-100w heater like you stated. I used 1-200w heater and it wasn't enough on my 40 gallon breeder. No way you can get away with a 50 or 75w heater unless the tank is kept in a warm place. Buy a controller though! I can't stress that enough. Go get the reefkeeper lite for $120, best money I've ever spent in this hobby.
Go with a small return pump. Maybe 200gph at the most. You don't want your return providing the flow for a tank. You need some powerheads in there for that. I prefer Vortech pumps but they come with a price.
Hope that helps
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Thorn
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Posted: May 05 2011 at 11:12pm |
So I went to my first meeting and won a candy coral. Cool!  Thanks!
Of course, my tank still looks like this:
So, Dion will be tending the coral for a few weeks. Thanks Dion.
Here's a picture of the stand build. I put the 20 long sump tank in to check out how things fit before I put the back on.
It doesn't look like it, but I'd guess about 2/3 of the work is done on the stand. I should be able to get the back and top on and a first finishing coat done this weekend. I may put off the doors until after I get it running, just to speed it up a bit. Gotta get that coral in...
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Thorn
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Posted: May 06 2011 at 7:55am |
08TRDOFFROAD wrote:
MSM=??? |
Mountain Shadow Marine. Randy is very helpful. Well worth a visit.
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Thorn
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Posted: May 07 2011 at 11:34pm |
Well, the stand is basically done. I need to set the tank on it to mark and cut the holes for the plumbing, then a little sanding and finish. Oh yea, attach the doors after the finish is dry.
That means I'll get to start actual work on the tanks soon!
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tcfab
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Posted: May 07 2011 at 11:46pm |
Stand looks great I do have a few suggestions for you on your sump though. You won't want to put your skimmer in your return area for two reasons. One is some skimmer spill out small amounts of micro bubbles and those will get sucked up by your return pump and you will have micro bubbles in your display tank. Second is your return area is where all your evaporation is going to happen on the system, skimmers do not perform well in an area that has water levels that are always fluctuating you will struggle to make it skim well for you. I know you have a Remora right now, but if you upgrade later to a different skimmer that sits on the bottom of the sump this is were you will run into the problem I mentioned above. Just thought I would mention that to you and give you something to think about. Looks like you are to a great start and you do have some good ideas for your sump
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Thorn
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Posted: May 07 2011 at 11:55pm |
Thanks Tyler. I had thought of what you point out. However, since I don't know what I'll upgrade to (any plans for a CS 100?), I thought I'd probably be better off leaving the end open for use as the return, then size as needed for what ever skimmer I end up with.
Hopefully that will be a ways down the road, though. There are lots of other things I need to spend money on, and I am hoping the Remora will keep me going for a while. Other than I will have to run a temporary sump for a few days to remodel the old one, do you see any problems with that plan?
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Thorn
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Posted: May 14 2011 at 11:28pm |
We got the stand and the plumbing done. I decided to leak test it before hanging the doors on the stand. Here's the most current shot:
The most apparent issue is that the Rio 12HF is just way to much flow. The refugium area was turning into a whirlpool. The only leak was a small one from betwen the bulkhead and the threaded el on the back of the tank. I'll have to find a pump with about half the flow and tighten the fitting a bit.
I also think the cuts on my over flow are about a quarter inch too low. I think I may cement a strip along the bottom of the cuts to raise the level in the display tank a bit.
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GentlemanBean
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Posted: May 15 2011 at 12:01am |
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wow. the stand looks amazing. instead of downsizing your pump, you could add a ball valve to the output instead.
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Thorn
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Posted: May 19 2011 at 11:22pm |
I got all the leaks fixed, tested it, and filled the tanks. I've been adding salt. I've got some mechanical filter media in the media box that will normally not be in it. It's just there to help clear up the water. The Rio pump is a little noisy, but is getting better. Hopefully it will quiet down more.
Here's some photos about an hour of the pump running:
The blue foam was an experiment to try and quiet the pump.
Things seem to be running well, and I'm just waiting for it to come up to temurature and the correct specific gravity for the salt. Unfortunately, I've got to go on a scout camp tomorrow, so I won't have anything more to do until Saturday afternoon. The plan then is install the doors, get the skimmer running, and hopefully get some live rock and sand in.
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jmtreml
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Posted: May 20 2011 at 4:49am |
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Looking like its going to be a nice setup!
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