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Jeffatpm 
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 Topic: Possible Utah Rock Problem
Posted: August 20 2011 at 1:38pm |
I need some help identifying if any of my rocks in my tank are utah rock or anything other than ocean live rock.
The idea was suggested that due to my continual phosphate problem, it could be a utah rock or similar that is leaching something out of the rock into the water. I figure it can't hurt, I've tried everything else.
Anyone going to be available monday or tuesday that can swing by and take a look? I live at 39th and 9th in SLC.
Thanks
Kevin - 801.358.1353
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210 Reef with loads of LEDS
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: August 20 2011 at 8:49pm |
I'd love to swing by but that's out of the question.  Can you post a pic? Lace Rock is sometimes blamed for phosphate which leads to an issue with nuisance algae but I've seen some nice displays where the Lace Rock was covered with Coralline algae. Whenever I have investigated nuisance algae problems, I've never found rock to be the culprit.
Is this "continual phosphate problem" causing an algae issue that we can help with?
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fishnfresh
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Posted: August 20 2011 at 9:07pm |
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I would have to agree with utah rock and problems. Biggest thing that comes to mind is think about it what kind of mine is out by there? copper how much of leechs into the sand and rock? what are the long term effects? I used utah rock for a tank at start of yr and had problems with coral and inverts.got rid of all of it and new tank,sand,rock, and no problems.plus to me the rock looks like boulders and sand looks like sandbox sand lol.
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bur01014
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Posted: August 20 2011 at 10:05pm |
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100% Utah rock (200 lbs) in my tank, year old, no phosphate issues here...
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Jeffatpm
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Posted: August 20 2011 at 11:08pm |
Hmmmm, yeah Mark or anyone else willing to lend a hand I've been fighting phosphates for a long time now, Phosphate sponge pulls it right out but then over time it builds again. I know I have a good amount of livestock but nothing has seemed to help at this point. I'ved tried the liquid phosphate removed, didn't seem to do much. I've tried charcoal, didn't seem to do anything. Currently running a bio-pellet reactor that i know takes time to be effective, and have started gfo.
It's been bad for long enough, I haven't been able to keep sps or even montipora, and my candycanes have pulled into their skeleton so much the skeleton is covered with coraline algea.
What time works for you Mark?
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ReefdUp
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Posted: August 20 2011 at 11:21pm |
I know this doesn't really help now, but FYI for the future....
I always soak any/all rock I buy in muriatic acid. It etches the surface of the rock to remove copper (and supposedly other hard metals). I also soak the rock (after a good cleaning to remove the muriatic acid of course) in bleach to kill off any spores/etc. I've never had an issue with phosphates leaching, copper, or anything like that...and I've used lace rock and all sorts of other rock that wasn't "ocean live rock".
I'd be more worried about using "ocean live rock" anyway - there's soooo much decaying organic matter stuck inside them (not to mention all the pests.)
If your rocks are leaching phosphate, then good skimming, water changes, and running GFO should have you back to normal in no time. Check to make sure you aren't overfeeding high-phosphate foods. That's usually an overlooked issue.
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Diving since 2009, reefkeeping since 2007, & fishkeeping since 1987
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Jeffatpm
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Posted: August 20 2011 at 11:41pm |
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I've been using algea sheets from the oriental food store, and ocean nutrition forumla one pellet. I just changed to spectrum, the one with the yellow tang and flame angel on the front.
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210 Reef with loads of LEDS
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Located Near Jordan Landing in West Jordan.
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BobC63
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Posted: August 20 2011 at 11:46pm |
I've used Utah Rock in 2 out of the 3 tanks I have had in the past 8 years... my 225g was close to 400lbs of ALL Utah Rock.
No phosphate problems ever. Or any other "leeching" issues. And as far as looking like boulders - I used a chisel and a masonary drill bit to carve out some pretty cool caves and nooks, etc.
If you have high phosphates it can be coming from several other places:
- Your water. Do you use tap, RO, or RO/DI?
- Food. How often do you feed, how high is the bioload of the tank (how many fish / how many gallons?)
- Do you run a skimmer? Is the skimmer appropriately sized for the tank bioload?
- How about a Fuge? Again, adequately sized for the application?
- Are you using any supplements like Amino Acids or "Fuel" products?
I'd examine all of the above before suspecting Utah Rock or sand as a PO4 source...
Edited by BobC63 - August 20 2011 at 11:46pm
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- My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) -
* Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 *
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phys
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Posted: August 21 2011 at 1:42am |
I'll agree with the pro-utah rock guys here. I have about 80lbs of it as well as 40 lbs of ocean rock in my 75 and i've seen no phosphates in my tank since i've had it running 2 months ago. As for the look, the stuff i've found looks very close to stuff you'd find in the ocean. I was surprised. For those interested, i've located another spot for getting Utah rock btw. Pm me if interested.
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Jeremyw
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Posted: August 21 2011 at 8:00am |
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Go through what bob asked some of those could be the problem.
As for Mark stopping by your house, that would be an expensive visit (he lives in Hawaii now )
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: August 21 2011 at 8:24am |
Sorry Kevin, I won't be returning to the Mainland until just before Christmas. I'd be happy to drop by then, but I'm sure we can resolve the issue before that. Can you please post a pic and/or describe how the tank is set up? Where did the rock come from that makes you concerned that it's a problem? Also please describe the problems this tank is having. We can help. 
 fishnfresh wrote:
I would have to agree with utah rock and problems. Biggest thing that comes to mind is think about it what kind of mine is out by there? copper how much of leechs into the sand and rock? what are the long term effects? I used utah rock for a tank at start of yr and had problems with coral and inverts.got rid of all of it and new tank,sand,rock, and no problems.plus to me the rock looks like boulders and sand looks like sandbox sand lol. |
Utah Rock, officially identified as Lake Bonneville Tufa rock(LBTR) does not have copper in it. The copper formations in the Oquirrh mountains have nothing to do with the formation of LBTR in Lake Bonneville. The formations are separated by a billion years of earth history and except for three rocks out of the hundreds of tons we have dealt with over the years, there has never been any issue with copper. I'm sorry to hear that you have problems with your tank when it was newly set up. You were cheated. The LBTR we use around here does not look like boulders. I am the guy who pushed the use of LBTR since the beginning when we discovered it more that 10 years ago. As in everything, the use of a poor quality product can lead to problems. There is still a small pile of the best quality LBTR left in Murray if anyone wants some. As was mentioned above, the best LBTR looks as good as, and even better than some LR from the ocean. There is also some Utah Oolitic sand left. It does not look like sandbox play sand. Fishnfresh, again I'm sorry to say that you were cheated on the sand you first used. I'm glad to know that you tossed out the "trash" sand and rock and are now having success.  BTW, soaking rock in Muriatic Acid is a drastic method. There are other ways to deal with any of the normal issues with using rock, whether it's terrestrial or ocean rock More about LBTR/Utah Rock is in the Reefkeeping Tips linked below.
Edited by Mark Peterson - August 21 2011 at 8:38am
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Jeffatpm
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Posted: August 21 2011 at 9:57am |
BobC63 wrote:
I've used Utah Rock in 2 out of the 3 tanks I have had in the past 8 years... my 225g was close to 400lbs of ALL Utah Rock.
No phosphate problems ever. Or any other "leeching" issues. And as far as looking like boulders - I used a chisel and a masonary drill bit to carve out some pretty cool caves and nooks, etc.
If you have high phosphates it can be coming from several other places:
- Your water. Do you use tap, RO, or RO/DI?
- Food. How often do you feed, how high is the bioload of the tank (how many fish / how many gallons?)
- Do you run a skimmer? Is the skimmer appropriately sized for the tank bioload?
- How about a Fuge? Again, adequately sized for the application?
- Are you using any supplements like Amino Acids or "Fuel" products?
I'd examine all of the above before suspecting Utah Rock or sand as a PO4 source...
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I do use Ro water and the output registers under 5 tds. I have it fill a brute container with a lid that I mix the salt into, and it's hooked into a kalk canister inline for my ATO.
I usually try and feed once a day - It's a 210 but pretty heavily populated 6 good sized tangs, clowns, wrasse, firefish, dottyback, gobies, etc.
I got a bigger skimmer a few months back - I have an ASM g2, It sure pulls nasty crap out of that water - I'm sure I could go bigger but dont' have room.
I do have a fuge in my sump with macro rock and a sand bed, as well other rock the water flows by on the way to the return pump.
I haven't added any sort of fuel or anying in a while, I did phyto feast for a little bit here and there and that's it other than the reef buffer, or calcium additaves.
I'll do water tests when I get home so I can relay mg, alk, phos, calc levels on the tank. As well some photo's so I can describe what the corals are doing and algea. I end up having to use the magnets to get algea off the glass daily.
I want to get the tank to a point where I can grow beautiful coral such as SPS, I'm stuck with just softies - I want to put my led's to work!
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210 Reef with loads of LEDS
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Located Near Jordan Landing in West Jordan.
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Ryan Thompson
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Posted: August 21 2011 at 11:45am |
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What salt is being used? I had problems with Reef Crystals having phosphates in the mix.
The Bio-Pellets will help control phosphates so that is a good move. Have you tired dosing any bacterial products? I used MicorBacter7 for quite a while and I really liked it. I actually have almost a whole bottle left that I can't use right now because I don't have a skimmer.
SPS require stable parameters. Dosing a 2 part or a calcium reactor is a must IMO. Water changes alone can not and will not keep levels in check from day to day.
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badfinger
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Posted: August 21 2011 at 12:01pm |
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You say that you have a brute container that you mix salt in with, then kalk for your ATO? so if I read that correct you use salt water for your ATO?
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Jeffatpm
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Posted: August 21 2011 at 4:23pm |
ATO - is fresh from the ro unit with the kalk on the way to the tank.
Dosing - I have seachem reef builder for alk, and reef advantage calcium for calc and strontium, epson salt for mg.
I used to use oceanic but have switched to red sea black bucket to get the high alk levels that my tank seems to always be low on.
Test Results My brute container has 15PPM tds, water coming out of the ro is at 3PPM tds, TDS of tank ERRRR :-). Calc Above 500PPM MG ~ 1400PPM Alk ~ 10dKH PH Swing of 8.06-8.31, right now 8.2 1.025 on salinity Ammonia ~.2PPM Going to get phosphates tested.
Candy canes that used to be big and beautiful.
I'm uploading a video of the entire tank and will post it shortly.
Edited by Jeffatpm - August 21 2011 at 4:25pm
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rwccomptech
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Posted: August 21 2011 at 5:05pm |
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Just a question but, are they the only corals being effected?
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Ron
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Jeffatpm
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Posted: August 21 2011 at 9:16pm |
I'm shocked I have almost 0 phosphates, barely readable. It's affected a lot of them over time most recently it has effected these the worst, you can see the skeleton of them is covered in coraline algea.
Here is the link to the video of my tank.
Will my ph swing cause these corals to have problems like this? What does everyone else do to manage their PH swing, i hear a lot about kalkwasser and lots of it.
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: August 21 2011 at 10:47pm |
Call me crazy but I see a really nice looking tank with plenty of life, even other healthy LPS coral. Not all life can live together, but I agree it is perplexing. That pH swing is normal and not the cause of problems for this one coral family, since all other coral look pretty good. How did you come to the idea that it might be a PO4 problem  Are you using AC? How much and for how long at a time? I'm also concerned about this information.
Jeffatpm wrote:
My brute container has 15PPM tds, water coming out of the ro is at 3PPM tds,
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Why would 3ppm water turn into 15ppm water? The Brute holding container could be dissolving into the water? How long have you used that container? Could that dissolved substance be what is bothering this particular coral species? Have you seen any animals picking at the Euphyllia corals, ...ever, possibly at dawn, dusk or at night? By the look of the skeletons this has been going on for quite a while. What's the story behind these corals? What did they look like at first? How long have they been in this tank and what was the course of their decline? Have you had other Euphyllia that did well?
Edited by Mark Peterson - August 21 2011 at 10:50pm
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Jeffatpm
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Posted: August 22 2011 at 12:04am |
PO4 has been a problem causing algea growth and signs from corals gave way to testing it, and it resulted like .5 in the past.
What do you mean am I using AC?
I agree with the brute container, I use that container to mix the salt in, I wonder after I rinse it and clean it out if it has some residual residue.
These corals started out absolutely beautiful, they would be all full and billow'y, so much so I could feed them half a silverside and they would eat it up! See in the photo.
I've had this coral since day one, it has grown so well, and then it seemed like it kinda got sick and never would get full and billow'y anymore and the soft tissue kept getting smaller and smaller and smaller, like he was deflated. I fragged him in two when I noticed another coral in the tank with flat worms, I'm told the not so bad kind, and I figured they were bothering him. Did coral a coral rx dip and got a melanuris wrasse and haven't seen one since, but still no improvement.
It would always seem that I couldn't give him enough light, I put him right under a 250mh in the past and he ate it up! however light has seemed to irritate him in the past while. Every once in a while I'll see some of the soft tissue come out and get sorta full. This lead me to the path of phosphates and when tested, appeared to be the problem.
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: August 22 2011 at 11:17am |
How did you come to the idea that it might be a PO4 problem I was wondering if the LFS that has been testing the PO4 is throwing out reasons without really investigating the issue. You say it's been going on for a long time, even after trying to deal with the PO4. Frankly, I don't see that as the problem, in fact it's less of a problem than most hobbyists realize. It's one of those things in this hobby, where we all just jump on the bandwagon and use PO4 Remover because everyone else is. LFS are famous for that because it gives you a reason to buy more stuff from them. Are you using AC? How much and for how long at a time? AC = Activated Carbon. In a tank like this, I would use 1-2 cups of AC for 2 weeks every month to remove aleopathic chemicals. These are the chemicals that coral produce to claim and protect their territory. In the immense water volume of the ocean they soon get diluted, but in our little tanks these chemicals wash around and around effecting every tank inhabitant. AC could also have a positive effect on the item below. The easiest way to use AC is to wrap it loosely in a piece of Bridal Veil material and set it next to the return pump strainer. The water running across the AC is effectively cleaned in this simple manner. I'm [very] concerned about this information:
Jeffatpm wrote:
My brute container has 15PPM tds, water coming out of the ro is at 3PPM tds,
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Why would 3ppm water turn into 15ppm water?
The Brute holding container could be dissolving into the water!
How long have you used that container?
How old is it?
Could that dissolved substance be what is bothering this particular coral species?This is a serious issue. In case it's not clear, a plastic container should not dissolve into the water. Is it possible that something dropped into the container? How long has it been since it was completely cleaned out?
Am I correct in assuming that this container is the source of top-off water?
Whatever that 12ppm of impurity is, my guess is that if you eliminate that impurity, the Euphyllia, and everything else, may do much better. At the very least, at this point it's the most glaring problem I can see. I suggest using a different container ASAP and use 3 cups of AC in the aquarium as described above. Let's get that irritating 12ppm of chemical out of the water if we can. If there is no improvement in the general appearance of the entire tank after running the AC for 2 weeks, the next product I would use is made specially for this kind of issue. My preference, Poly Filter is made by www.Poly-Bio-Marine.com. My second choice is Chemi-Pure.Hope this helps. It's not a PO4 problem. It's not a rock problem.
Edited by Mark Peterson - August 22 2011 at 11:46am
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