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mikenmandymoo View Drop Down
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    Posted: January 14 2012 at 10:12am
 So we have our 65 gallon and 40 gallon tanks up and running well.  We feel that the 40 gal is stable with the chemistry, but the 65 gallon still seems a bit "new" with the chemistry levels and we are seeing a fluctuation in the Ammonia and Nitrite levels.  We have roughly 100lbs + pourous rock - about 60 or so snails and a hermit crab.  Peppermint shrimp (2 of them) and just was going to add a purple firefish.  We want to move the rest of the clownfish and damsels over, but want to make sure it's stable before the move happens.
1-7: Ammonia was at 0 / Nitrite was 0.25 / Nitrate was 100
   - we placed some Reef Buffer in the tank last week and then retested again this morning

1/14: Ammonia was 2 / Nitrite was 0.25 / Nitrate was 0.25

We saw a decrease in the Calcium levels (from 500 to 440) since last week - mainly because we stopped adding the "Purple Up" Ca additive for the coraline algae growth.

my questions are:
  1.  Should this spike in Ammonia be a concern to us?  If so what do we do to help decrease the ammonia in the tank?
  2. Should we prepare for a huge spike in the Nitrate as a result of the high ammonia?
  3. Any suggestions to help stabilize the tank?

Thanks in advance!   Smile 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2012 at 7:25pm
It depends on how the tank is set up.
Just a warning though, if the tanks are less than 4 months old it may not be over for either of them. But there is an easy way to avoid problems.

In general the more Live components used, the less problems with Nitrogen levels. This is the reason I put together the Reefkeeping Tips thread linked below.

A really good method that helps the tank fully stabilize during the first week of it's life is the use of good amounts of Macroalgae with continual illumination when necessary. Macroalgae is easy to get here because hobbyists on this MB are always harvesting it from their systems.

Macroalgae with 24/7 illumination is the best thing for emergency reduction of Nitrogen pollution.

How much Macroalgae was added to these tanks?
Algae, when illuminated all day or in extreme cases at 24 hours per day will eat up Nitrogen pollution like crazy, before it becomes a problem.

While algae keeps N levels within limits, the good water quality allows other biofiltration organisms like bugs, sponge, worms, etc., to flourish. This helps a tank mature to where the algae can be harvested/reduced and given to other hobbyists for their new tanks. Smile

Can you post a pic of the tanks, or are there pics in another thread?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2012 at 7:33pm
I went looking and couldn't find pics of these tanks in previous posts.
Is the canister filter running? How often do you clean it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mikenmandymoo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2012 at 10:10pm
Originally posted by Mark Peterson Mark Peterson wrote:

I went looking and couldn't find pics of these tanks in previous posts.Is the canister filter running? How often do you clean it?

Mark - Here are pics of the 65 gallon tank.  We have a bunch of macroalgae in the tank.  I will illuminate for 24/7 for a few days then.  We haven't cleaned out the filter canister since we set it up (about 2 1/2 weeks ago).  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mikenmandymoo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2012 at 10:50pm
Originally posted by Mark Peterson Mark Peterson wrote:

It depends on how the tank is set up.
Just a warning though, if the tanks are less than 4 months old it may not be over for either of them. But there is an easy way to avoid problems.

In general the more Live components used, the less problems with Nitrogen levels. This is the reason I put together the Reefkeeping Tips thread linked below.

A really good method that helps the tank fully stabilize during the first week of it's life is the use of good amounts of Macroalgae with continual illumination when necessary. Macroalgae is easy to get here because hobbyists on this MB are always harvesting it from their systems.

Macroalgae with 24/7 illumination is the best thing for emergency reduction of Nitrogen pollution.

How much Macroalgae was added to these tanks?
Algae, when illuminated all day or in extreme cases at 24 hours per day will eat up Nitrogen pollution like crazy, before it becomes a problem.

While algae keeps N levels within limits, the good water quality allows other biofiltration organisms like bugs, sponge, worms, etc., to flourish. This helps a tank mature to where the algae can be harvested/reduced and given to other hobbyists for their new tanks. Smile

Can you post a pic of the tanks, or are there pics in another thread?

We have quite a bit of macroalgae in the tank.  I haven't done continual lumination.  We have it on a 12 : 12 hr cycle.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2012 at 11:33am
Thanks for the pic. Wow, you are naturals at aquascaping. Thumbs Up
In a newer tank like this, things are struggling and some stuff on recently added LR may die, causing a spike in pollution levels.

I would get more Macroalgae, Caulerpa for sure.
As Caulerpa grows and covers the rock it looks awesome and when the time comes to harvest it, that would be the time to add that Tang or Rabbitfish you've been wanting. The abundance of Algae will not only handle the pollution from unexpected die-off and from the new fish but will be like a continual feast for the fish. Fish added to an algae-ful tank are much less likely to stress and die. This is the best way I know to prepare a tank for adding it's first fish, especially it's first herbivorous fish.

Here is what a tank can look like when there is plenty of Macroalgae.

Where's Waldo? Can you find the five types of algae in this picture?

Those young Bangaii Cardinal were transported when they were just half that size, from Farmington UT to St. George UT and not one was lost, partly because they went into this algae-ful tank. Cardinals are carnivores rather than herbivores, but they benefit from an algae-ful tank because of the bug population. Bugs grow great where there is plenty of cover and food. The bugs I'm speaking of are Amphipods and Copepods.

For a new tank like yours, I would not recommend a Purple Firefish. Firefish are too delicate and Purple Firefish are more expensive. Let the tank grow for 2 months with plenty of algae OR chose a different fish to start off with now, one that's less delicate, but not a Damsel, except maybe a pair of tiny Yellowtailed Blue Damsels. Wink

Just a note before I forget, it's not necessary to "Quote" the previous post, rather, click Reply or use the Reply box at the bottom.

How many snails are in this tank?
What powerheads are in this tank? I can only see one in the pic.
If it were me, I'd stop using the external filter. It's unsightly and only going to cause problems, if it is not already a source of problems.Ouch

I know I say a lot and border on being overcritical so if you don't want this much information please let me know. Embarrassed Would you care to share a pic of the other tank?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mikenmandymoo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2012 at 5:42pm
So we have two softball size clumps of the spaghetti algae as well as the caulerpa that is with the candycane corals.  We have about 10ish hermit crabs, and about 20 astrea snails, 5 pacific turbo snails and about 5-10 cerith snails.   We have an adult pair of black clownfish and 2 peppermint shrimp in the 65 gallon tank.  When you talk about going away from the external filter - do you mean to set up the sump instead?   Our 65 gallon tank is not currently drilled or fitted for a sump.  However I'm sure we can retro-fit it.  So what would you recommend for us to run then rather than an external canister filter?

We have had at least one diatom bloom, but haven't seen any coraline algae yet.  

Suggestions?  I am open to any and all suggestions - you have been doing this FAR longer than I have and have experienced this the hard way and are just offering me the knowledge to help me avoid the same pitfalls.   Big smile

Thanks in advance!
Here is the pic of our other tank - Little blurry, but hopefully you get the idea. :)  In the 40 gal we have about 20 hermit crabs as well as 20 cerith snails and about 4-5 pacific turbo snails.  We have about a softball size amount of spaghetti algae.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mikenmandymoo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2012 at 6:00pm
Forgot to mention - 
  We have three powerheads.  A maxijet, a Koralia, and a smaller one (can't remember the name.)  There are two on the right and then the third on the right side.  We also have the output wand that runs across the top as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mikenmandymoo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2012 at 6:02pm
Also... why not a damsel?  We have two blue damsels in the 40 gallon already on the suggestions of a worker at the LFS. Unhappy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2012 at 8:22pm
Wonderful. Smile
Thanks for the explanation and the other pic. The picture quality is just fine. I have seen enough tanks and pictures of tanks to be able to see what's going on. The things that I cannot see are the in-tank equipment that is outside of the picture.Unhappy

The four Live components are excellent filtration and in fact, all that a reef aquarium needs to sustain itself. This is similar to what Mother Nature uses in the pond, the tide pool and indeed the entire earth. It's interesting and cool to find that the biofiltration grows to meet the needs, or in other words, the waste and pollution produced by pooping fish becomes food for all the algae, invertebrate animals, bugs, bacteria and worms in the aquarium. The more waste produced, the more the biofiltration expands to eat the pollution. It becomes a living ecosystem that can take care of itself and expand to meet the increased bio-load so long as the hobbyist does not change things too quickly, like adding too many new fish all at once. Does that make sense?

We have discovered unfortunately, from the many canister filters used by hobbyists that come to this MB, that a canister filter usually causes more problems than it solves, so it is okay, and even recommended, to remove it. (Break it down, clean it and let it dry.) If you choose to use it later, it can serve a useful purpose for running AC(Activated Carbon). That won't be needed for a while though.

In time as you gain more experience in the hobby, you may find that there are reefkeeping methods and tips of which the ordinary worker at the LFS is either not aware or does not share because their job is to sell you things. Just so you know, Damsels become very territorial and make life difficult for tank residents that come later. In the old days, one way to "Cycle" a reef aquarium was to add some Damsels and wait for 2 months before adding anything else. Damsels are pretty tough and either handle the water quality problems or die a sacrificial death to help "cycle" the aquarium. Perhaps you were instructed to use this method. No problem, you have already begun to learn a better way by adding Macroalgae. I see some LR and assume you have also acquired some LS from another tank, right?

It would be very helpful to see the entire tanks, so we can consider the placement and direction of the powerheads. Water movement is essential to a healthy reef. Also fyi, we have found that an open top is much healthier than a reef aquarium with a glass top. All of this and the further suggestions we might make, contributes to gas exchange. Good gas exchange makes sure that there is plenty of Oxygen in the water so that CO2 is kept to a minimum. This ratio of O2 to CO2 in the water, leads to proper pH.

Speaking of pH, it's actually not important to test pH and there is a good reason for my saying that. I can explain later. The reef aquarium's four most important water parameters are Temperature, Salinity, Alkalinity and Calcium. Would you mind sharing with us what these four readings are for your two tanks?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2012 at 9:22pm
Hey mandy i didnt see this post before but u have all of the same algae i was going to give u as ur other post is a bit vague. U are still welcome to it but the other stuff to promote bio diversity is urs if u want it ....i also have a yellow belly damsel but as Mark said it has tried to become a bully but with a lil stick training has mellowed out ( Mark Training technique) Also have 2 chromis they are very hardy and race around doing laps around the tank.  Mark i offered some sand water and a piece of live rock covered in clover polys for her sump :) 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mikenmandymoo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2012 at 9:25pm
Mark
  Thanks for your help!  I found that your Reef Keeping link beginners guide CRUCIAL to me being able to get the tanks up and going so easily without the headache that so many people I've talked to about getting a Reef Tank going experienced.  A few questions then: So, if we take down the canister filters - what do we use for the filtration then, just the LR / LS (yes I got the LS from an established tank.  Also took some from the 40 gal and placed it in the 65 gal to help with the additional seeding of the sand)?  Sumps / Refugiums? If a sump / refugium - any suggestions on fitting a 65 & 40 gal that are NOT pre-drilled for sump plumbing for such a set up? 
I will get a testing kit for the Alkalinity tomorrow and test it then list it here in the thread.
I see about the damsels - they do seem to find an area of the tank and defend it quite a bit... but lucky for us we only have the two damsels in the 40 gallon tank with two small mocha clowns. a peppermint shrimp, & a cleaner wrasse that we have yet to see since they came into the tank.

I will get pictures of the powerheads and send them after this thread.  Both tanks are actually open tops, it just happened to be that way.  Sure we are manually topping off every few days...but it's easy and we like the look of it anyway. :)

Now for the readings:
40 gal:
 Temp:73 F
 Salinity / Specific Gravity:40 pp / 1.030 g/dL
 Calcium: 440
 Alkalinity: (Haven't tested it, but will post results when I get them.)

65 gal (Ca was tested on 1/14 - all other parameters are current)
  Temp: 76.1 F
  Salinity / Specific Gravity: 52 pp / 1.035 g/dL
  Calcium: 440
  Alkalinity: (Haven't tested it, but will post results when I get them)
Pics of the tanks will follow this post. :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mikenmandymoo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2012 at 10:01pm
The 40 gallon tank




65 gallon 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mikenmandymoo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2012 at 10:02pm
And the other powerheads. :)


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 17 2012 at 6:01pm
Thanks for all the pics. The full tank pictures are the most useful.

First thing I noticed and I'm sorry, but it's a bit alarming. Shocked Why is the salinity so high, in both tanks? For the water loss due to evaporation are you topping off with saltwater? Top off is done with freshwater only.
If I'm correct, the tanks are about 2 months old so there are still a lot of growth changes taking place but I'm sorry to say that the high salinity is actually causing some deaths. To slowly decrease the salinity remove about a gallon of water each day and replace it with pure water until the tank salinity is within the range 1.022-1.026.

Next thing is powerhead placement.
If you twist the Maxijet on the glass so it's sitting almost sideways and swivel the nozzle up, you can remove the adjustable fan nozzle attachment and get a whole lot more benefit from the pump. Push it down to the bottom back corner and aim the water stream up to the center of the surface. I have a pic of this somewhere. Oh and Maxijet pumps come with a short intake strainer that doesn't get in the way like that long extension strainer. The short strainer also has more surface area so it takes longer to clog.

The inside bracket of the stream pump (Koralia?) can be notched so that the shaft fits into the notch and can be pointed up at a higher angle. It also can be moved down to the other bottom back corner and pointed up to the center of the water surface.

With powerheads down lower and even placing rock in a way that partially hides them, the view of the tank will be more pleasing to the eye. If the heater is slid over to the very corner, the powerhead electrical cords can also be partially hidden alongside the heater.

Canister filters hardly push any water so that benefit will not be missed when you remove them and with all the the extra pipes gone, the tank will look much more presentable.

We are waiting to know the Alkalinity and I would also like to see full tank shots with the lights on. Wait until evening, with the room light dimmed, set the camera on a solid surface and take the shot without flash.

This is my 2 cents worth of advice. I know I say more than enough detail, but I hope it helps. Smile

Here's the pic showing best use of a Maxijet. This works better than a Stream Pump costing almost twice the price. The reason is that a strong stream moving much faster actually creates faster flow within the tank. Notice how I flip the suction bracket so the two suction cups are on the top side. This better holds the pump in place, counteracting the tension of the electrical cord. Of course in the pic it's on the outside of the tank. Embarrassed Imagine it's mirror image on the inside back bottom corner.



Edited by Mark Peterson - January 18 2012 at 12:10pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mikenmandymoo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2012 at 8:19pm
Mark - We top off with ONLY RO water - will test the salinity of the pre-mix water I suppose.  I will then readjust the powerheads tomorrow morning.  We will continue to pull a gallon of water every day until we get the salinity down.  We were planning on a water change in the morning anyway - so we will run out to the LFS and get an alkalinity test tomorrow.  I will adjust the rockwork a bit tomorrow anyway and then will reposition the powerheads and discontinue the filter canisters on both tanks.  
Question though - if I stop with the filter canister...what filters the tank?  Rock & Moving water? 

 I haven't seen any death in the tank.. but definitely not growth in the zoas or the rest of teh soft corals we had added to the tanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mikenmandymoo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2012 at 12:21pm
So - here are some pics of the new rockscaping - and powerhead placement in the 40 gallon tank.  We discontinued the filter canister on the 40 gallon and the water went cloudy with the adjusting.  Going to do a water change and hopefully the water will clear up a bit. :P


Here is the repositioned maxijet:

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mikenmandymoo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2012 at 12:27pm
Here is the maxijet:

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mikenmandymoo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 23 2012 at 6:51pm
So - we have repositioned the powerheads in the 40 gallon and took the canister filter off - using the biofiltration and the powerheads.  I retested the parameters today at water change and here they are:
Temp: 73
Salinity: 1.024
Nitrate: 40
Nitrite: 1.0
Alk: 300
pH: 8.0
Ca: 420

I think all my parameters are within normal.  I took the canister off about two days ago and ran it like it should be.  I'm only feeding the fish once daily and dosing my corals with fuel and oyster feast twice weekly.   Anything else I'm missing?  Besides a sump that I'm designing and hopefully will have up within the next few weeks. :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2012 at 9:00am
Looking good.
In time, the Nitrate level should go further down, but at this point there isn't much need to test because the appearance of the coral will tell if something is out of line. The coral should start showing signs of growth. A good sand bed with fine sand on the very bottom and a variety of sand dwelling creatures like Amphipods, Copepods, Bristleworms, Spaghetti Worms, and Cerith Snails will help keep the N levels low.

The Alkalinity at 300ppm (17 dKH) is a little high. What have you been dosing that it went to that level?

I would remove the fan attachment on the Maxijet nozzle. It only slows down the water flow. Simply turn the pump just a little more (clockwise in that pic) and swivel the nozzle to get the water stream to hit the surface like this:



Edited by Mark Peterson - January 24 2012 at 9:11am
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