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Teknik777 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Teknik777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2012 at 10:39am
Copps 2011

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote laynframe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2012 at 1:45pm
Sounds like your cal reactor is too small and cant keep up with the demand of the tank. I would upgrade to a reactor that is designed to handle what you have. More corals need more calcium. What is your drip count on your reactor and what is your bubble count. If you are dosing too much carbondioxide you will have low ph, but your alk would be high. I would upgrade your reactor and dose until all perams are in check again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2012 at 2:07pm
Originally posted by DLindquist DLindquist wrote:

I have a 265 Gallon display tank, 50 gallon sump and a 75 quarantine tank all plumbed together.
Why is the 75 gal tank connected to the system? Technically speaking, this is not a quarantine tank. Any pest brought into that tank can spread throughout the entire system.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ReefOn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2012 at 11:58pm
After spending Way TOO much money on a Cal Reactor for my near 700 gallon system at home, Dosing ALL of my topoff water through a kalk stirrer, as well as dosing my water change water and my whole system EVERY day, I have found the BEST system ever and am using it on the show tank at the store. I even sold my calcium reactor and paid for the whole new system, while the guy I sold it to was happy with the smokin deal.

Since getting the new system dialed in, I was testing alk/cal every week, but after a month and seeing my alk move less than .2 dkh (yes that is a decimal in front of the two) and my Cal move less than 5, I now only test every other week(but I am a nerd who likes testing and proving myself right, lol)

If you have been in the store in the last two months, you have prob heard me talking about this system. If not, feel free to stop by and we can explain it and show it to you, as well as 1-2 inch per month growth tips on our New ORA Redplanet colony. (by the way, selling frags)


Thanks
Jerry and the Team at ReefOn


ReefOn

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DLindquist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2012 at 1:10am
Originally posted by laynframe laynframe wrote:



Sounds like your cal reactor is too small and cant keep up with the demand of the tank. I would upgrade to a reactor that is designed to handle what you have. More corals need more calcium. What is your drip count on your reactor and what is your bubble count. If you are dosing too much carbondioxide you will have low ph, but your alk would be high. I would upgrade your reactor and dose until all perams are in check again.

I have tried to maintain a steady drip count of around 3 drips a second and a bubble count around 2 every 3 seconds. I'm sure my reactor is too small but I wanted to verify a larger reactor could maintain Ca and Alk before upgrading.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DLindquist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2012 at 1:21am
Originally posted by Mark Peterson Mark Peterson wrote:

Originally posted by DLindquist DLindquist wrote:

I have a 265 Gallon display tank, 50 gallon sump and a 75 quarantine tank all plumbed together.
Why is the 75 gal tank connected to the system? Technically speaking, this is not a quarantine tank. Any pest brought into that tank can spread throughout the entire system.

During my 16 years of SW reefing, I have never had, nor treated for any fish disease up until about three months prior to upgrading to the 265G. I purchase a Yellow Eye Tang that came down with ich. When everything was said and done- I lost him, two Helfrichi Firefish and my Blue Spotted Jawfish. Not fun!

Prior to upgrading, I decided not to push my luck. I want to "observe my fish" for four-six weeks prior to placing them in the display tank. Should any of the fish come down with something, I will isolate my "quarentine tank" and turn it into a "hospital tank" or pull out the fish and place it into a dedicated "hospital tank." In my studies, I have come to understand many of the chemical treatments used on fish can inflict more harm than good and even cause negative long term effects. I have some more delicate species on my wish list and belive this the best route to go in hopes of success. I am sure there will be some people who live by treating prior to any possible infection or parasite, but I have chosen not to.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DLindquist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2012 at 1:23am
Originally posted by ReefOn ReefOn wrote:

After spending Way TOO much money on a Cal Reactor for my near 700 gallon system at home, Dosing ALL of my topoff water through a kalk stirrer, as well as dosing my water change water and my whole system EVERY day, I have found the BEST system ever and am using it on the show tank at the store. I even sold my calcium reactor and paid for the whole new system, while the guy I sold it to was happy with the smokin deal.

Since getting the new system dialed in, I was testing alk/cal every week, but after a month and seeing my alk move less than .2 dkh (yes that is a decimal in front of the two) and my Cal move less than 5, I now only test every other week(but I am a nerd who likes testing and proving myself right, lol)

If you have been in the store in the last two months, you have prob heard me talking about this system. If not, feel free to stop by and we can explain it and show it to you, as well as 1-2 inch per month growth tips on our New ORA Redplanet colony. (by the way, selling frags)


Thanks
Jerry and the Team at ReefOn

I was in your store a couple of weeks ago for the first time. I only saw a younger employee working at the time and never heard about your current set up.
A government strong enough to give you everything you want, is powerful enough to take everything you have.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Teknik777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2012 at 12:41pm
Originally posted by DLindquist DLindquist wrote:

Originally posted by Teknik777 Teknik777 wrote:

Cal reactor and dosing is what a lot of totm tanks do.


Haven't been there (totm). Don't want to do that (manual-dosing).


This is from Copps January 2011 Tank of the Month article. I look to this articles as SME telling us what makes successful reef tanks!

I maintain my alkalinity, calcium, and all other levels exclusively through my calcium reactor, 2-part solution, and water changes. That is it for supplements other than food. The calcium reactor I use is the same I used on my old TOTM back in 2004, a My Reef Creations CR-2 dual chamber filled with Caribsea ARM media. While this is probably undersized for my system, it functions fine if I refill media on a more frequent basis. I use a pH controller on the calcium reactor, but only for emergency purposes as I had a regulator go bad years ago that dropped the pH of my system after spewing CO2. I supplement about ¾ of a cup a day each of B-Ionic 2-part solution using two Drew’s Doser Peristaltic Dosing Pumps. Years ago I noticed a benefit in my coral health when using 2-part solution in addition to the calcium reactor, which I didn’t see in my test results. So, I’ve kept using it. It also adds redundancy should either of the two systems fail.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bstuver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2012 at 1:42pm
Originally posted by ReefOn ReefOn wrote:

After spending Way TOO much money on a Cal Reactor for my near 700 gallon system at home, Dosing ALL of my topoff water through a kalk stirrer, as well as dosing my water change water and my whole system EVERY day, I have found the BEST system ever and am using it on the show tank at the store. I even sold my calcium reactor and paid for the whole new system, while the guy I sold it to was happy with the smokin deal.

Since getting the new system dialed in, I was testing alk/cal every week, but after a month and seeing my alk move less than .2 dkh (yes that is a decimal in front of the two) and my Cal move less than 5, I now only test every other week(but I am a nerd who likes testing and proving myself right, lol)

If you have been in the store in the last two months, you have prob heard me talking about this system. If not, feel free to stop by and we can explain it and show it to you, as well as 1-2 inch per month growth tips on our New ORA Redplanet colony. (by the way, selling frags)


Thanks
Jerry and the Team at ReefOn


Would love to see pics and how you do this. Not sure when I will make it up that way
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rufessor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2012 at 12:18pm
Sorry it took so long to post back..

I will provide a very good link to a discussion on dosing Kalk and the use of Vinegar to increase calcium availability (first one below).  I also have a link to an article on alkalinity that is somewhat technical (it is after all chemistry).

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.php

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/2/chemistry


I will summarize the important parts.

There is an upper limit to the level of Calcium supplementation that can be provided through the use of Kalkwasser, but its perfectly acceptable, and even recommended, to use Kalk dosing as a method to both balance alkalinity and dose Calcium on systems WITH a calcium reactor as these typically drive alkalinity DOWN, which is what your seeing.  So... I think your in a perfect situation to use this.

However, if you dose to much kalkwasser to fast you can drive both Calcium and Alkalinty DOWN.  This is not probably an issue on a 300 g system but it would depend upon your daily ATO volume and if your using saturated Kalkwasser as ATO water, which is probably NOT required for you as your running a reactor all ready.

You can increase the level of calcium availability (reducing calcium carbonate precip upon addition to your tank or in the ATO reservoir) by dissolving the Kalk powder in vinegar purchased from the store as 5% acidity, its fine...  read the above first article to get an understanding of how much to use etc...  but tis about 15 ml/tsp of paste. 

BEWARE that you could theoretically accumulate enough vinegar to influence the alkalinity test result through titration of the acetate (vinegar=acetic acid = acetate plus a proton) which goes into your aquarium as this will titrate with the carbonate etc and likely influence most commercial test kits...

how much is open to debate.. two things for sure happen.... one balances this by consuming the acetate... 

bacteria consume acetate as a carbon source and produce two CO2 from a single acetate so it gets consumed and produces more CO2 to form appropriate carbonate buffering... and although the rate of its consumption is probably difficult to measure it likely increases over the first few weeks/months of use as the bacterial population expands with the new food source and then probably some sort of equilibrium would be reached, so its going to go away through feeding.

However, its relevant by addition because total carbonate alkalinity is titrated at about 3.5-5 mEq/L... at 5% acidity it would take roughly 500 ml (1/2 L) of pure 5% acidity store bought vinegar to the tank all at once to change the result by around 10%... at 15 ml vinegar per gallon of water with 1 tsp Kalk that would equate to 33 gallons of Kalk water... which I would go through in 1.5 months for my 70-80 gallon system so I am guessing this is no more than 3 weeks of addition so if NOTHING got consumed in a short time your alk tests would begin to rise detectably but in error...

So.. my advice is to start slow with kalk in mostly water and increase your vinegar additions to help calcium availability over a few months if your SUPER worried about it.  A LOT of people use vinegar and I have not seen anyone complaining about false Alk tests in practice but that means squat as no one tests for acetate.  I am almost certain that very little would accumulate due to consumption.  Hope this helps.... and is not too confusing.  Its like everything else, its complicated if you really want to understand it and it sounds confusing and even dangerous... but many many people find it very easy... and for the most part its trouble free so long as you go slow, monitor your tank, and dont dump 20 gal of saturated Kalk into your system in 5 mins.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2012 at 12:42pm
This statement does not make sense to me.
"calcium reactor as these typically drive alkalinity DOWN"

The fact as I understand it is that the amount of Alkalinity delivered by a Calcium Reactor to meet a tank's needs is less than the amount of Calcium delivered. The ratio/proportion is a little off. Over time, the lower Alkalinity delivery means that it must be supplemented to bring it back up into proper proportion.
Because Kalkwasser provides an equal proportion of Alk and Ca, but because it by itself is insufficient to meet the demand for alkalinity and because it still is adding Ca, the disproportion still exists, just slowed a bit in reaching a point where Alk supplementation is needed.

Does this make sense? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rufessor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2012 at 1:48pm
Sorry I really should avoid generalities...  and my understanding of the reactor system is much less than the Kalk but they are basically the same thing right... 

You use CO2 to form carbonic acid to lower the pH in order to dissolve rock (calcium) in the reactor, and you adjust the water flow rate and CO2 bubble rate to get the pH in the effluent stream to a level low enough to actually dissolve the calcium (say pH 6.5 is depending on substrate size type etc).  As well as dissolving the calcium through the pH effect, carbonic acid is simply protonated carbonate so your basically making alkalinity too... 

If you turn up the Co2 in attempt to get more carbonate buffer your going to drop tank pH as you turn the carbonic acid/carbonate/bicarbonate equilibrium towards low pH and your pH will drop at any given alkalinity so you cannot chase alk with a reactor without killing your pH... so thats why I recommend using Lime water... it will help consume the excess CO2 keeping carbonic acid formation a bit less, in turn help to raise Alk and bring more Ca.  I guess I am not sure I know if there is an exact ratio that can be relied upon in terms of delivery.  Ca once added is either deposited as coral skeleton or precipitates as rock or is in the water, because there is a CO2 gas / air exchange that is significant and that directly influences Alk I am not sure if its always the same system to system especially when you start pumping CO2 in with a reactor and your system has different gas exchange rates than the next one...

I guess I am not sure how much any of this can be predicted... I was just going along the lines of... we need more Alk... and Kalk is a pretty reliable way to do this and even recommended to help balance the pH issues with reactors...  Unsure really but what you say makes some sense as well.  Clearly you can use science to understand what SHOULD happen but we are all basically using a unique set up when you consider the number of variables that significantly influence these equilibrium so I kinda measure and adopt to what happens... in this case I THINK (I do NOT KNOW) that Kalk seems reasonable... its certainly testable and unlikely to hurt if approached with some reasonable caution and its about as cheap as it gets.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2012 at 2:32pm
agreed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rufessor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2012 at 2:33pm
Sorry.. I think this is also relevant.
 
Normal sea water has VASTLY more calcium than carbonate alkalinity.  If you were to quantitatively precipitate the entire carbonate/ALK as calcium carbonate the calcium level would barely drop (like 15%) so there is no "equilibrium" in terms of there being any kinda of an equivelance between these two... which is why most people do OK with calcium and chase alkalinity. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DLindquist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2012 at 11:25am
Rufessor- I started dosing Kalkwasser yesterday through a 5G drip system. However I have yet to try using vinegar in conjunction. I'm starting out slow. I noticed PH at 8.1 when I left this morning. While some are not fans of testing PH or associating it with Alk levels- I believe we are on the right track. When I get home I will test Ca and Alk and hope levels will be rising up.
-Thanks for all the help.

Edited by DLindquist - February 11 2012 at 11:49am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rufessor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2012 at 11:45am
Do not be surprised if its not quick to rise. You should go slow and increase Kalk saturation in your reservoir as you need for ca levels. I am close to saturated and can barely keep up in amuch smaller tank. Volumes scale a bit but you may have a lot more demand. No guarantees but seems like your going to know soon!!
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