Facebook
Twitter

Utah Reefs Homepage
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - ICH
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

ICH

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Ann_A View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Avatar

Joined: August 18 2011
Location: Kaysville, UT
Status: Offline
Points: 2767
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ann_A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: ICH
    Posted: February 12 2012 at 11:01am
I know there are other threads on this very subject, but I want to make sure that I am going about things the right way here. So here's what is going on...

Last night I noticed a few white spots on my Sailfin tang, and after observing my fish for a while, I noticed that my Yellow Eye tang also had them, except he has many more, and all over his body. I would have noticed earlier, however he almost always hides and when he is out he is moving quickly and makes it very difficult to observe his health. I am fairly certain that they have ich.

So far I have removed all fish from the tank and now have them in a quarantine/hospital tank. I have not decided on a treatment yet, but I will likely be using hyposalinity in combination with medication(s). For now everyone seems to be eating well, though my powder blue is a bit hesitant to eat and generally will eat after the other tangs have finished most of the food.

I will be testing my water later today, so parameters will be posted later. I did however check my salinity and temperature last night; specific gravity came out as 1.025 and the temperature holds steady at 78-80F. The tank is a RedSea Max 250, which is 66 gallons. It's been running for about 2 months now, although a large portion of the livestock came from a 28 gallon nano cube that was running for a year prior to the upgrade. I am running all of the standard equipment, with carbon in the media chamber. I do not have a UV sterilizer or a refugium.

Fish:
-2 Oscellaris Clownfish
-1 Yellow Eye Tang
-1 Sailfin Tang
-1 Powder Blue Tang

Parameters:
S.G.= 1.025
Temp.= 78-80F

All top offs and water changes are done using RO water. I plan on doing a 30% water change today, even though the fish are not in the tank, it will at least help to remove some of the free-floating ich, and restore nutrients for the corals. I plan to keep the fish out of the main tank for at least 3 weeks, possibly longer depending on how long treatment lasts. This should ensure that the ich is gone in the display tank, right?

I would appreciate any/all advice possible! I've never had to deal with ich before, and I know that there are people here who have plenty more experience in this hobby than I do. Thank you!

Edited by Ann_A - February 12 2012 at 11:02am
Back to Top
DLindquist View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Avatar

Joined: June 07 2008
Location: Lehi
Status: Offline
Points: 1568
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DLindquist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2012 at 12:11pm
Now that you have removed the fish...

If you plan on ridding your display tank of ich without treating it for ich, you'll need to keep fish out of that tank for a minimum of six-eight weeks. I would also mention- three, eventually larger, tangs in a 66 gallon presents a stressful situation for those fish, which in turn weakens the fish. In general weak (or stressed) fish are much more susceptible to ich.


Edited by DLindquist - February 12 2012 at 3:50pm
A government strong enough to give you everything you want, is powerful enough to take everything you have.

Back to Top
Ann_A View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Avatar

Joined: August 18 2011
Location: Kaysville, UT
Status: Offline
Points: 2767
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ann_A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2012 at 1:10pm
Ok well my planned treatment just jumped to 10 weeks out of the display tank. Would a 50 gallon tank with an oversized canister filter work well for a hospital tank? I will also be getting a UV filter for the both tanks, not that I really want to spend the money, but as a preventative measure and I can use the hospital tank as a quarantine tank in the future, and obviously will keep the other UV filter running on the RedSea Max.
Back to Top
Adam Blundell View Drop Down
Presidency
Presidency
Avatar

Joined: June 24 2002
Location: Centerville
Status: Offline
Points: 18320
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adam Blundell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2012 at 2:48pm
Really tough call. Although you've made the decision easier by removing the fish. If you have them out already, and you're willing to keep them out 8 weeks then that is a good option. Also, I'd treat the fish with copper and other meds while you can.

But the real problem is going to be 4 months from now. You either need to be ready to keep ich out at all costs, or simply be ready to battle it again in the future. That's you biggest dilemma right now.

Adam
FRAGSTOCK
Back to Top
Connie View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Avatar

Joined: December 28 2003
Location: West Jordan
Status: Offline
Points: 2794
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Connie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2012 at 3:13pm
I am with Adam. I think moving them puts more stress on them and therefore, increases your ich problem. Every tank I have ever had and every fish I have ever had, has had and does get ich, Really not a big deal. Just put fresh pressed garlic in the food you give them... I have never lost a fish to ich....
I have flying monkeys and I'm not afraid to use them.

180 gallon money pit that I love.....
Back to Top
tileman View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Avatar

Joined: November 05 2003
Location: Murray
Status: Offline
Points: 5343
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tileman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2012 at 5:27pm
I agree with both Adam and Connie.  Ich is a parasite that most likely be in your tank forever, But fish with a good immune system and a healthy slime coat on their skin keeps the parasite from incubating on the fish host.  When fish get stressed, their skin becomes an easy target.  Fish eating garlic strengthens their immune system and the bugs hate the odor that excretes from the fish. 
Garlic, if taken regularly will prevent, and in this case help the fish get rid of ich.  If your fish is completely covered and not eating, then its time to place in quarantine.
MSM has a flake food that contains a medication soaked in the flake called Nitrofurazone.  It is safe to administer in your reef and will get ich off your fish.  It is bottled specifically for Mountain Shadows Marine.  You might consider this as an option also.  
335G Reef
TOTM.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2015/2/aquarium
ReefKeepers TOTM Feb. 2012
http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index....k-of-the-month






&
Back to Top
Ann_A View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Avatar

Joined: August 18 2011
Location: Kaysville, UT
Status: Offline
Points: 2767
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ann_A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2012 at 5:31pm
So general consensus is to put the fish back in te tank and feed with garlic-coated food?
Back to Top
Adam Blundell View Drop Down
Presidency
Presidency
Avatar

Joined: June 24 2002
Location: Centerville
Status: Offline
Points: 18320
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adam Blundell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2012 at 5:33pm
Well, at this point, not sure. You've already stressed them and moved them so now is the easy point of treating them.

Adam
FRAGSTOCK
Back to Top
tileman View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Avatar

Joined: November 05 2003
Location: Murray
Status: Offline
Points: 5343
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tileman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2012 at 5:38pm
How bad are they?  Covered to the point of not eating?  Do they seem stressed right now? Just a few spots  and eating still?
335G Reef
TOTM.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2015/2/aquarium
ReefKeepers TOTM Feb. 2012
http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index....k-of-the-month






&
Back to Top
Ann_A View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Avatar

Joined: August 18 2011
Location: Kaysville, UT
Status: Offline
Points: 2767
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ann_A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2012 at 5:47pm
My yellow eye tang is covered in white spots, not like coated covered, but there are spots all over his body. The sailfin and powder blue mainly have spots on their pectoral fins, with a few across other area on their bodies. I haven't noticed any spots on my clowns, but I didn't want to risk anything. The yellow eye is hiding a lot, but still seems to be eating. The sailfin is definitely still eating well, but the powder blue is barely eating. The clowns are eating completely normally. I did notice the powder blue and the yellow eye rubbing up against the sand a few times before I removed them this morning. I have not seen the sailfin exhibit this behavior yet, but he does seem to be more agitated than usual.
Back to Top
tileman View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Avatar

Joined: November 05 2003
Location: Murray
Status: Offline
Points: 5343
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tileman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2012 at 6:00pm
It's a total judgement call.  I feel the stress will be a lot less, in the environment they are accustomed to.  Tangs don't do well together in small areas usually.  But it may be easier treating them in a QT tank.

If it were me, I would keep the 2 tangs (yellow eye and powder blue ) that are covered and leave them in the QT.  And treat with Hyposalinity and garlic
Add the others back in their home. And treat with garlic.
335G Reef
TOTM.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2015/2/aquarium
ReefKeepers TOTM Feb. 2012
http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index....k-of-the-month






&
Back to Top
ReefdUp View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Avatar

Joined: March 20 2011
Location: South Weber
Status: Offline
Points: 4164
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ReefdUp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2012 at 6:08pm
I would go hyposalinity with erythromycin.  It'll work and it's really safe for fish.  You already have them out of the tank.  If you're concerned about the length of time, you could go with the tank-transfer method. 
www.reefdup.com
Diving since 2009, reefkeeping since 2007, & fishkeeping since 1987
200g, 75g, & 15g Systems
PADI Advanced Open Water
Back to Top
CapnMorgan View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Avatar
The Capn'

Joined: August 19 2009
Location: Tooele
Status: Offline
Points: 3535
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CapnMorgan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2012 at 8:32pm
I agree with hyposalinity. It works, and it works well. It is actually beneficial for the fish as most of their energy and metabolism is used up removing salt from their body systems. A hyposaline environment not only kills the parasites, but lets the fish use it's energy more efficiently to recover. A UV sterilizer is a great investment but they are never 100% effective as their flowrate determines kill ratios and what is killed off. I recommend everyone keep a QT system running at all times. The bare minimum is relatively cheap. You can even use a rubbermaid tote, a HOB filter, and a heater in place of a more complex system. I QT all my incoming fish in a hyposaline system with UV. This also allows me to treat them for any internal infections by feeding them foods fortified with neded medications. It really does make a world of difference.
 
The only way to ensure you never get Ich is to quarantine all incoming livestock, and run the display tank fallow (without fish) for 6 weeks before introducing any of your livestock. So by starving the Ich out of the display and then introducing livestock only after a good QT process you can make sure you never have to deal with Ich in your DT again.
Tangs are very well known for being Ich magnets, but none moreso than the Powder Blue. They get Ich, it's just the way it is.
 
Here's a link to a small write up I did on how to treat with hyposalinity.


Edited by CapnMorgan - February 12 2012 at 8:48pm
Steve
180G Mixed Reef
130G Waterfall Tank
65G NPS
435-830-8855
Back to Top
Mark Peterson View Drop Down
Paid Member
Paid Member
Avatar

Joined: June 19 2002
Location: Murray
Status: Offline
Points: 21431
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2012 at 10:33pm
After reading all the above, I'm concerned with how long these fish can remain in what I assume is a newly set up Hospital Tank.
You said, " Ok well my planned treatment just jumped to 10 weeks out of the display tank. Would a 50 gallon tank with an oversized canister filter work well for a hospital tank?"

A canister filter will not give the fish a fighting chance. They must be in a tank that has adequate biofiltration.  My other main concern is the same as mentioned by others, that moving sick fish is overly stressful and should generally be avoided.

I'm sorry for your trouble but I think we can still help you recover most if not all your fish. I would suggest that the best course of action would be to feed them right now where they are with Garlic Oil per the instructions in the Reefkeeping Tips below. Here is the Tip already linked for you: Secrets of adding new fish, fish training and the Miracle of Garlic Oil
Then tonight or at the latest tomorrow night, before the pollution level gets out of hand in the new hospital tank, carefully capture the sleeping fish and move them back to their original home. There is where they feel most comfortable. Continue treating with Garlic Oil and also add the Nitroferizone dosed flake food from MSM to the daily feeding.

Unfortunately, your fish are in a bit of a pickle. We have all been there and in bigger pickles than this, so please don't feel bad. May I suggest that in the future, to do it best from the start, come here immediately and/or call me on the phone to ask what we know would be the best first course of action.

The next thing we can do is to help you modify your aquarium ecosystem so that this does not happen again. Your mentioning of a Yellow Tang that hides that much is a big red flag to me that some tank change is needed to make all the fish feel less stressed.

Please feel free to call me to discuss any and all of this. I'm awake late into your night and up early to work with my clients on the mainland (9AM to Midnight Mountain Time), so a call to the toll free # below or directly to 808-775-9370 is perfectly alright.


Edited by Mark Peterson - February 13 2012 at 12:02am
Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks:
www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244
Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
Back to Top
CapnMorgan View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Avatar
The Capn'

Joined: August 19 2009
Location: Tooele
Status: Offline
Points: 3535
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CapnMorgan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2012 at 4:23am

While Mark makes some valid points, a canister filter is plenty adequate for a QT tank. The main thing is haveing adequate and established biological filtration. This can be sped up by adding a live bacterial culture (like Micobacter7).

I also see in your post at the top you are doing a water change, I wouldn't worry about it. Free swimming Ich must find a host within 3-5 days or it will die. It's the cysts you really have to worry about. They drop into the substrate and will remain there dormant for up to 4 weeks. That is why running your tank fallow for 6 weeks is neccessary if you want to completely rid yourself of Ich. Otherwise your fish will be healthy enough to fight it off naturally but it will always be present in your system waiting for a stressed fish to infect.

Steve
180G Mixed Reef
130G Waterfall Tank
65G NPS
435-830-8855
Back to Top
Ann_A View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Avatar

Joined: August 18 2011
Location: Kaysville, UT
Status: Offline
Points: 2767
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ann_A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2012 at 9:29am
As some suggested, I moved the Sailfin and the clowns back into the display tank last night, and thus far the Sailfin still seems to be ok, and does not seem to be bothered by the presence of garlic oil in his food. As for the powder blue and the yellow eye, things are not looking too great. They're still in quarantine, but are hardly moving around and are no longer eating. They seem to be very weakened and I don't know if they are going to pull through. I have acclimated them down to a specific gravity of 1.015, and am planning to drop it down to 1.010 today. I have also tried 3 different types of garlic oil in their food (since I've read that different brands/types can affect things?), without seeing them eat any of it, although they won't even eat food that doesn't have garlic oil. They don't look good, and the ich has definitely advanced and covered more of their bodies. As far as biological filtration is concerned, I always keep two extra sponges running in my display tank's sump, in case I need to quarantine or have some type of emergency and need a hospital tank. I have since moved these sponges over to a power filter running on the container that the powder blue and yellow eye are currently in. I am hoping to setup a 40-55 gallon hospital tank using a large canister filter and a UV filter soon, preferably today. I will then move the clowns and the sailfin into this tank so that I can treat them for ich, and keep them out of the display tank for 8 weeks in order to free the display of ich. I would move the yellow eye and powder blue into the hospital tank instead, but I think that the more I move them around the more the stress will build up and only harm them further. Unfortunately I cannot observe, tend to, or supervise the fish for most of the day today since I am at school. I am afraid that the powder blue and yellow eye may not hang on long enough for me to do anything for them, and could possibly even be dead by the time I get home this afternoon. Any more advice is always welcome, and I'm open to any criticism of my methods. Thanks again for all of the help and advice!
Back to Top
Mark Peterson View Drop Down
Paid Member
Paid Member
Avatar

Joined: June 19 2002
Location: Murray
Status: Offline
Points: 21431
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2012 at 9:51am
As Steve alluded, the HT needs to have adequate biofiltration. A canister, even oversized as you put it, is not enough. Just recently. in several other threads. I have recommended that canister filters be removed because in a marine environment they seem to cause more problems than they solve. Even if this HT has LS and has been running for 2 months or more, adding 3 large fish and 2 smaller fish is overtaxing it's biofiltration. Pollution is rising even as we speak. HT's are usually meant to house a single fish, not the entire population. The result is going to be Ammonia rising to toxic levels and then comes the elevated Nitrite which, along with the Ammonia will certainly stress and possibly kill the fish, which are in a weakened state already.

My final comment and then I'll shut up. Smile
It is highly improbable and very impractical for us ordinary hobbyists to believe that we can keep Ich out of our community tanks. Even after the fallow period, the survival of just one Ich parasite in any of it's stages or reintroduction of just one Ich life stage via a single drop of water, a piece of gravel, LR or a straggler parasite that was protected from medication while inside a fish, is all it takes. Just one single surviving Ich organism in any of it's stages is able to multiply, produce dozens or even hundreds of Ich parasites for the next stage of it's development. By far the better method in my opinion is to make the tank environment so healthy that the fish feel very much at home and to prevent Ich by dosing food with Garlic Oil. Two points I made in the thread but people sometimes miss is the method of best delivery and to try different types of Garlic. We have found that different Garlic products work in different tanks. If Ich does not decrease within 2 days try another Garlic Oil product. The proper delivery of the Garlic to the fish is very important, also described in that thread. I have never had to use these on my personal tanks, but a UV Sterilizer or O3 in the skimmer can be used to partially overcome any lack of healthy conditions in the Ich contaminated tank.
Big smile
Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks:
www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244
Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
Back to Top
Ann_A View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Avatar

Joined: August 18 2011
Location: Kaysville, UT
Status: Offline
Points: 2767
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ann_A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2012 at 11:07am
I realize that my current HT is not a permanent or long term solution, but it will work for a day or too. I am also going to do a water change on it when I get home, assuming that the two tangs are still alive. :/

As far as getting rid of ich, I know it is highly unlikely that I will be able to keep it out of my tank indefinitely, but I am going to at least try to reduce its population in my tank. I am hoping that by setting up a true hospital tank I will be able to treat my fish and get them back into good health, so that when I return them to the DT they will be able to fight off the ich by themselves. I also just checked with my parents on the condition of the fish that are in quarantine, and apparently they are not looking good, and are "gasping" and "breathing extremely fast" although I don't know how accurate this description is since my parents could be exaggerating or are simply observing the same behavior and condition I observed, but do not realize there isn't any change. The sailfin and clowns are still ok in the DT. I will be feeding them immediately upon getting home, and I hopeful that they will make a full recovery. I am sad to say that I am not so confident about the powder blue and yellow eye tangs, who's condition seemed to worsen from last night to this morning.
Back to Top
Ann_A View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Avatar

Joined: August 18 2011
Location: Kaysville, UT
Status: Offline
Points: 2767
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ann_A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2012 at 3:18pm
What type of garlic oil would you recommend? Is roasted garlic ok?

Here's what's in it:
-Canola/Extra Virgin Olive Oil
-Rosemary
-Minced Garlic
-Thyme
-Oregano
-Pure Garlic Oil
Back to Top
tileman View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Avatar

Joined: November 05 2003
Location: Murray
Status: Offline
Points: 5343
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tileman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2012 at 3:20pm
Kents...Garlic extreme.
Sold at most LFS
335G Reef
TOTM.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2015/2/aquarium
ReefKeepers TOTM Feb. 2012
http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index....k-of-the-month






&
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.297 seconds.