Death of fishy friends

We've had 2 fishie deaths in as many days and we have no idea why :( The fishies we've lost are a royal gramma and a yellow eyed tang.

The gramma died yesterday while we were at work. His behavior had been a little off a couple of days prior. He was hiding even more than usual and wasn't eating as often as he usually does but he was still swimming around from cave to cave and didn't seem lethargic, didn't have anything unusual on him as I know you'll often find with many illnesses. So while sad since there were no visible signs of disease and all the other fish were acting normally we didn't concern ourselves overmuch until this morning when we found the tang dead.

The tang was acting perfectly normal. Was eating well, moving around a lot as he does. He was eating red algae from the rocks, green algae from the glass and seaweed we put in there on a clip and all was well. Same as the gramma there was nothing visably wrong with him.

We got the tang maybe 3 weeks ago and I would guess just under 2 months ago for the gramma. Our tank (as I'm sure many know) is pretty new so we don't have much other livestock left but we'd still like for them to stay alive! The rest of the inhabitants, 2 clowns, red sea starfish, coral banded shrimp,  various CUC (emerald and sally lightfoot crabs, various snails) and all our corals which as of this morning are behaving perfectly normally.

Our levels are as follows: Ammonia barely registered, I'd say about .1ppm. Nitrate and nitrites were 0, Ph was 8.3, salinity was 1.023. I can't tell you on trace minerals but when we had them checked last about a month ago at our LFS everything was hunky dory. Only thing that I can think of that has varied is we haven't done a partial water change about a month because we are low on salt. Since our bioload is low I don't think this is a big problem but I'd be remiss if I didn't mention it.

Our google searches about it kind of lead us to the conclusion that "poop happens" but I wanted to get a second opinion!

Girlfriend took some pictures but none of them turned out, even with sticking out waterproof camera in the tank. We think it might be ick afterall tho. The clownfish have what she described as "white sand all over" which we both understand is what ick looks like. We actually did notice this on the tang but since said tang just loved rearranging the sand in our tank we figured it actually was sand! It may have been on the clownfish the entire time too. Our 10,000k's are on mostly while we are at work and it is hard to see in the actinic light.

Given that, what's the best treatment? We can quarantine the clownfish. Are any of the other critters at risk? I don't know if CUC, starfish and shrimps can catch this.  We've read higher temps (I'm not positive on this one tho, maybe it hurts more?), gradually lowered salinity and dosing with copper are all good treatments. Anyone agree/disagree?

Thanks Mark so if not ick any guesses as what what this fine sand might be? And I take it from your recommendation from your link about the new fish that you're recommending I feed our remaining fish with garlic oil soaked food to reduce stress levels?

Were we to temporarily house our corals in a quarantine tank (easier to move them then the fish) and dose with copper would it hurt other things in our tank? (CUC, starfish, shrimp?) And how long after dosing should we wait to put the corals back in? We do run carbon via a HOB (no sump).

Really I guess the question is what is the most likely to work? Copper or garlic oil. If copper is more work and less effective then I'll of course take the advice of using garlic instead :)

Well sadly we didn't get that far. What we finally elected to do was pull the clownfish to the quarantine tank. While as mentioned it's stressful for them, we realized that our quarantine tank doesn't have sufficient lighting to keep our coral in for extended periods of time which is what we were originally considering. Girlfriend got some medication called "copper safe" as I recall (Didn't see the "stay away from copper all together til after this", but it was probably too late anyway for the clowns) and we treated the quarantine tank with it and moved the clownfish there but they didn't even make it the night :( So with that, it's a total wipe as far as our fish go :( Shrimp, starfish, corals, and cuc all seem fine tho. Is there any risk for them? I don't know if the illness is communicable to anything besides fish.

Oh and after reading up a little more on the different diseases we are inclined to think it was velvet rather than ick.

But while depressing, because as I'm sure you all understand we got rather attached to them we are not daunted and wish to get it going again. And we will definitely do the garlic oil thing. We weren't prior and I feel it may have made the difference. We'll also get those other testing kits as mentioned earlier.

So my next question is with all the fish gone is there still a risk of new fish getting whatever parasite from the tank? Should we wait a period of time? Should we do certain amounts of water changes beforehand? To be honest I haven't done any research on this at all. Haven't had time and I trust advice here more anyway.

Since we don't know what it was with certainty but it only affected the fish (everything else continues to do well) it seems it must be some kind of parasite. We looked up various different kinds any it seems none of them can survive without a host anywhere near as long as rufessor suggested (6 weeks) so we've added a UV Filter we're running a few hours a day and will wait the full course of 6 weeks before we add something.
But, since we can't be SURE it's gone since we aren't sure what it was, we'd like suggestions on an inexpensive fish we can test the waters with for a month or two. I know damsel is the default answer but it's my understanding they tend to be more terrirorial so I'm not sure that's the best choice.

clubbby wrote: Were we to temporarily house our corals in a quarantine tank (easier to move them then the fish) and dose with copper would it hurt other things in our tank? (CUC, starfish, shrimp?) And how long after dosing should we wait to put the corals back in? We do run carbon via a HOB (no sump). Really I guess the question is what is the most likely to work? Copper or garlic oil. If copper is more work and less effective then I'll of course take the advice of using garlic instead :)

Quick note- don't ever treat your display tank with copper. You're rock and sand will absorb the copper and continually leach it back into the water. Thus causing problems forever for your livestock.

Sometimes the research that new hobbyists do is more confusing than helpful. The reason for this is that too many new hobbyists post misinformation in forums. In this WMAS forum, there are enough experienced hobbyists to refute or call BS on any misinformation posted.

I will try to simplify the points of information that you should know:
- Velvet is a fungus/mold. Mold, toadstools and mushrooms are a form of fungus.
- The Ich parasite is usually the first organism to affect new fish or any fish that is stressed for the many reasons that happen in new (and old) tanks.
- Velvet growth on fins as well as Bacterial infections on the fish are most often brought on by the stress caused to fish by the Ich Parasite.
Just think how you would feel if you had hundreds of mosquito bites all over your body! But the Ich Parasite isn't just on the outside of the body, it attaches in the gill area as well and it's a much larger problem relative to the size of the fish than a mosquito bit is to a human. Very stressful to say the least.
- Eliminating the Ich Parasite from the reef aquarium may be easy, just wait six weeks, but keeping it out of the aquarium is very difficult and, for most hobbyists, is not worth the time and trouble.
- Every drop of water or piece of LS or LR is a potential carrier of one stage or another of the Ich Parasite - It only takes one hitchhiking parasite to quickly produce 100's.
- The simplest, most economical and productive way to keep Ich from causing trouble is to use the specific Garlic Oil product that works for each particular reef aquarium. (I don't know why exactly, but I have had good luck with the $5 bottle of 50 gel capsules. Others say that a $25 bottle of Kent Garlic Xtreme is what works best for them. I would always try the inexpensive stuff first.)
- If one Garlic product doesn't work within two days, it never will. Try another product.
- Damsels are very, very tough. I guarantee that if you add one or more of them tomorrow, most of them will survive. So that's not a good test to see if the Ich Parasite has been subdued or eliminated.

For some advice that is specific for your tank, please post a full tank pic, tell us the Alk and Ca levels and tell us about the tank's filtration. I have a few fish in mind but would like to see the tank first.

[QUOTE=Mark Peterson] Sometimes the research that new hobbyists do is more confusing than helpful. The reason for this is that too many new hobbyists post misinformation in forums. In this WMAS forum, there are enough experienced hobbyists to refute or call BS on any misinformation posted.

Well said Mark!

 It's working.
I'm a simple coral farmer. I guess I was confusing it with freshwater Velvet unless I'm also wrong about that organism.  Thanks to Reef'dUp for calling my BS!
I'm not as conversant about fish diseases. Never had the interest, just know that Garlic Oil has made fish survival rate go way, way up for so many hobbyists.

Unfortunately, I've never had the pleasure of visiting with all the excellent hobbyists that have joined this group in recent years. If I were still living local, I would have made it a point to visit and learn from them. I recommend that as the best way to improve quickly in this hobby.