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BobC63 
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 Topic: The "Brown Sand Blues" & Other Weird Stuff
Posted: April 03 2012 at 12:52pm |
As many of you already know, I have been trying to eradicate some cyano from my sandbed.
(At least I think it is cyano, read on...)
Initially I thought it was an 'excess nutrients' issue casuing the outbreak - now I am not so sure.
And now I have a few other 'weird' things to add - and while they are weird, they are not all bad...
Anyway... so, on this cyano thing...
I have some brownish stuff on portions of the sandbed. It does seem to 'ebb and flow'; larger on some days, less on others. Darker / more abundant as the day progresses (due to lighting, I am guessing). The brownish stuff sometimes gets a little 'stringy' (short, maybe 1/4" strings) and soemtimes has tiny air bubbles in it. Sounds like classic cyano, right? Well, maybe...
Other things you need to know:
1) Water parameters are very stable and 'perfect' =
Temp = 76 F
SG = 1.0255
pH = 8.1
dKH = 10.0 - 10.5
Ca = 440 ppm
nH3 = 0
nO2 = 0
n03 = 0
Mg = 1400 ppm
pO4 = 0 on my API kit (but I know it is not that accurate for low amounts)
2) I have tons of flow... 650 gph through the return, and approx 4,300 gph through my Tunze 6101 and (2) aqueon 850s - all on 100g of water volume. My sandbed 'shifts' over the course of a few days from all the water movement.
3) My skimmate production is not an overly large amount IMO; I run a Bubble Magus NAC - 7 Cone skimmer and the cup gets about half full in about 5 days to a week's time
4) I run cheato in my fuge and the growth is medium - slow... the softball sized ball doubles in about a months time - so not very quickly, IMO
5) I run a Phosban reactor with BRS GFO. Started with 1/2 cup so as to not shock my corals; currently have 1.5 cups in there, tumbling steadily. Just changed the GFO about a week ago.
6) SPS has great polyp extension and is coloring up nicely (not browning out). In fact, I have taken in a couple of corals that were browned out in other people's tanks - and they are coloring back up. Remember the "Heil's Big & Thick" Acro from the last frag sale (maybe November 2011)? When I got it the frag , it was mainly brown with some green tips. Now, it has grown maybe 33% in size and added many small tips, and is almost all green with light bluish tips... I just picked up a good sized Acro colony from a guy in PG that had browned out; 10 days in my tank and the branches are turing purplish and the tips are already turning back to blue. I got a nice frag of Fuzzy Purple milli from sabeypets and it has been in my tank for 2 weeks now and is as 'fuzzy' as ever.
7) I have stopped water changes (in case they were 'fueling' the cyano)... my RO is only 2 -3 ppm anyway (with a Spectrapure membrane), but I figured I 'd cool it with the WCs to see if that had any effect. Not really.
8) I do not have any of this 'cyano' ANYWHERE except the sandbed. Not on any rocks, or the glass, nothing.
9) I have ZERO Hair algae in the display. In fact, I don't need to wipe the normal green 'haze' off the glass until 3 or 4 days pass. All my rocks are clean and have decent coralline coverage. No Valonia, no HA, nothing bad.
Now, I read over on Reef2Reef where people thought they had cyano, but it was actually dinoflagellates (dinos). And they were able to eridacte the dinos by dosing with H2O2 (peroxide) for 5 days to a week. So, I tried it - for 10 days straight. Made my water a little clearer, made my nems tentacles shrink up for the first 15 minutes after each dose... but no effect on the brown sandbed.
In the grand scheme of things, this is not a huge problem... I am also fortunate in that this stuff does not seem to be bothering my corals at all. I have a few fungias that sometimes are surrounded by this stuff, and they are fine.
But my sand is just such a fine, pretty bright white that I just want it to look perfect.
Now, other weird things (just side notes)
I have a small Orange Acan colony that I picked up from ReefRunners maybe a month ago. It had 8 heads, all around the size of a nickel (so decent sized heads). Been checking it everyday to see when it would finally add a new head...
Looked last night. There is a 'belt' of new heads around the entire circumference of the coral! I mean, maybe 12 - 14 new 1/4" heads  just below the original heads. Once these new heads fill in to the size of the others, this coral os going to almost triple in size - all at once!
Next, I had noticed some new heads popping up on my Duncan. Started with 13 heads maybe 4 -5 months ago. Counted them all last night. Now alot of the new ones are not as big as the old ones...yet.
But... 41 heads!
Last one... my Longnose Butterfly went AWOL last night. It was swimming around at maybe 5 PM. Then went to feed at 8 PM and - gone! No sign of it. Checked the overflow (even used a mirror to see behind the tank into the overflow), checked behind the stand, all around the tank (even though I have a canopy), opened the canopy and check the top of the tank, looked all thorugh the rockwork. Nothing. Checked the sump, filter sock, etc. Nothing. The fish has been doing well, eating brine, mysis and bloodworms. Until now.
Now, I know this thread is pretty much useless without a few pics. So, I'll try to snap a few tonight.
Just figured I'd start you guys thinking about this ahead of time...
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- My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) -
* Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 *
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Ryan Thompson
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Posted: April 03 2012 at 1:08pm |
Bob,
Do you have Vida Rock in this tank? I found that Vida Rock can release silicates for a LONG, LONG time. That would definitely cause you some dinos or cyano or even diatoms. I know that diatoms usually go away at the beginning with most tanks but with Vida Rock, I seemed to always have a small patch somewhere.
Just a thought.
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bur01014
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Posted: April 03 2012 at 1:25pm |
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Couple thoughts for you to think about:
1. You're system still likely has excess nutrients due to the fact that you are running a phosphate remover and your chaeto is still doubling each month. When I put GFO on board, my chaeto actually died off rather quickly. This may be something to think about....up your GFO?
2. What kind of sand is in this system? Any Utah sand in there? Do you find that your extra flow blows it around some?
3. Do you have a fighting conch in this system? If not - get one! Will help keep the sand pearly white....kinda a band-aid but are the best cleaners and fun to watch.
I run 100% vida rock in my system and have had no issues with algae beds on my sand.....from my experience I would say you may be getting some dinoflagellates, google it! They are kinda brown, snot like strings, with bubbles. Very annoying and when out of control are toxic to some fish and corals. The consistent culprit for this issue in my experience has always been something to do with the tank's sand bed. Type of sand, mixing sand, deepness, age, etc. can all release havoc on a tank.
In closing- be patient and keep moving forward. In past tanks I have suffered from algae to the point of almost giving up....in many cases, even though we do our best to solve the problem, it may just come down to tank maturity and the tanks own ability to stabilize itself. Also, there is a common pattern that is followed- one a reefer gets rid of one type of algae, the dye-off and natural progression of the tank, forms another type. (this doesn't just apply to the initial cycle) Keep the course, this stuff will be resolved, time is all the tank may need.
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Jake Pehrson
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Posted: April 03 2012 at 2:03pm |
Bob, If it is only on your sand bed have you tried to siphon it all out? If so did it immediately come back? Do you really have 0 nitrates? In my experience dinoflagellates don't like high pH. I would try and up your pH. If all else fails you may want to try siphoning what you can and then leaving your lights off for a day or two.
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BobC63
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Posted: April 03 2012 at 2:20pm |
 bur01014 wrote:
Couple thoughts for you to think about:
1. You're system still likely has excess nutrients due to the fact that you are running a phosphate remover and your chaeto is still doubling each month. When I put GFO on board, my chaeto actually died off rather quickly. This may be something to think about....up your GFO?
2. What kind of sand is in this system? Any Utah sand in there? Do you find that your extra flow blows it around some?
3. Do you have a fighting conch in this system? If not - get one! Will help keep the sand pearly white....kinda a band-aid but are the best cleaners and fun to watch.
I run 100% vida rock in my system and have had no issues with algae beds on my sand.....from my experience I would say you may be getting some dinoflagellates, google it! They are kinda brown, snot like strings, with bubbles. Very annoying and when out of control are toxic to some fish and corals. The consistent culprit for this issue in my experience has always been something to do with the tank's sand bed. Type of sand, mixing sand, deepness, age, etc. can all release havoc on a tank.
In closing- be patient and keep moving forward. In past tanks I have suffered from algae to the point of almost giving up....in many cases, even though we do our best to solve the problem, it may just come down to tank maturity and the tanks own ability to stabilize itself. Also, there is a common pattern that is followed- one a reefer gets rid of one type of algae, the dye-off and natural progression of the tank, forms another type. (this doesn't just apply to the initial cycle) Keep the course, this stuff will be resolved, time is all the tank may need.
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In the past I have run GFO and not had my macros die off. I know many people who have both at the same time. My cheato takes longer than a month to double, it just takes a mont hte firsttime becasue the intial ball size is small. But I do think it would not hurt to change out the GFO again...
Utah sand, mixed with some Carribsea sugar - grained sand.
I have 3 Tiger Conches and a Diamond Goby. The goby doesn't come out all that much from its burrow, but the conches move all around the tank
I have 1 piece of Vida and the rest is Fiji rock. The VIda ia probably 25 - 33% of the rock toal by weight.
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- My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) -
* Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 *
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BobC63
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Posted: April 03 2012 at 2:23pm |
Jake Pehrson wrote:
Bob,
If it is only on your sand bed have you tried to siphon it all out? If so did it immediately come back?
Do you really have 0 nitrates?
In my experience dinoflagellates don't like high pH. I would try and up your pH.
If all else fails you may want to try siphoning what you can and then leaving your lights off for a day or two. |
I siphoned it out 1 time and then totally 'blacked out' the tank for 3 whole days (covered in black plastic bags, etc). Stuff was 95% gone after the blackout, but came back in about 2 weeks.
0 nitrates on my API and Salifert kits.
What do you recommend to raise the pH? Kalk?
And this is definitely localized ONLY on the sandbed
Edited by BobC63 - April 03 2012 at 2:23pm
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- My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) -
* Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 *
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BobC63
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Posted: April 03 2012 at 2:26pm |
Ryan Thompson wrote:
Bob,
Do you have Vida Rock in this tank? I found that Vida Rock can release silicates for a LONG, LONG time. That would definitely cause you some dinos or cyano or even diatoms. I know that diatoms usually go away at the beginning with most tanks but with Vida Rock, I seemed to always have a small patch somewhere.
Just a thought. |
If it was caused by the Vida Rock, shouldn't there be some on the Vida Rock itself?
My Vidarock is very clean, except for coralline. The only other 'pest' problem I have is 2 tulip anenomes that I need to kalk-paste inject.
I need to put up some pics. It is not a 'huge' problem, like sometimes people post up photos of their sand and rocks just covered in gooey crap... but it is noticeable enough to me.
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- My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) -
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ReefdUp
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Posted: April 03 2012 at 7:32pm |
I doubt it's a silicate issue as silicates fuel diatoms...which outcompete cyano (Holmes-Farley documented that in several articles). I also think dinos are overdiagnosed in the hobby since everyone loves to think they have something difficult to treat - I think most of it is just cyano (dinos are prevalent in the hobby...but for some reason they're only known for brown goo...) I'm not saying it's not dinos...just that I'd rule out other things first. Along the dino route, hydrogen peroxide dosing scares me. It decreases coral calcification and causes all sorts of other problems. I think it's another case of everyone jumping on a bandwagon without researching the full effects of a treatment. I'd go with a higher pH in hopes that it works instead. When was the last time you added anything? How old is the tank? I try to regularly add new coral/rocks/fish in order to keep introducing bacterial strains. Over time the tanks will become less diverse, and IME, cyano wins out a good bit. What are you feeding, and how much? The phosphates contributed by your water changes (rising TDS) are probably negligble to how much you're adding through food. If you are feeding regularly, I'd pick water changes back up and decrease feeding (or switch to a lower phosphate food.)
Edited by Reef'd Up - April 03 2012 at 7:33pm
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BobC63
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Posted: April 03 2012 at 9:47pm |
I tried the peroxide just to see if it would have any effect (which it did not); if it had worked I would have used it only occasionally - not as a daily dosing regimen. Tonight I changed out the 1.5 cups of GFO that I had put in my Phosban reactor a week prior. This time I upped it to 2 full cups. I can't go any higher unless I remove the carbon portion in the reactor. BRS recommends 1.88 cups for my water volume (approx 115g). Next time I will drop it down to 1.75 cups to allow some extra 'tumbling' room... Since my Ca and alk are where I want them to be, how do recommend rasing the pH? Would kalkwasser work best? The tank has been up a year and I add a new coral or fish (mostly corals) around once every 2 weeks, Feed mostly frozen foods, usually 1 cube every other day, for 11 fish.
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- My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) -
* Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 *
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BobC63
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Posted: April 03 2012 at 9:48pm |
Oh, and I forgot to take any photos... 
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- My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) -
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kellerexpress
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Posted: April 03 2012 at 10:02pm |
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Definetly sounds like Dino's to me, and seems to be related to and fueled by the sand bed. Have you vacuumed the sandbed? There may be nutients trapped below that are fueling this stuff. A more extreme approach would be to slowly remove the sand over the course of a few weeks and replace it will new clean sand and see if that helps.
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bur01014
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Posted: April 03 2012 at 11:05pm |
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^+1
I like just enough sand for aesthetic reasons...how deep is your sandbed?
I know people may flame on me for this - but in all my tanks with Utah sand, I seemed to always have algae troubles...
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: April 04 2012 at 12:40pm |
BobC63 wrote:
...I add a new coral or fish (mostly corals) around once every 2 weeks, ...11 fish. |
I would not be surprised to learn that the algae is a combination of strains of common or uncommon algae that was introduced by all the stuff you have added, including, as I recall, lot's of different Sponges and/or Tunicates. If this were my tank, I'd add 2-4 Sand Sifting Cucumbers watch the feeding and leave it alone to settle in for a month or so. My 2 cents 
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BobC63
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Posted: April 04 2012 at 12:47pm |
Hi Mark -
I have 1 Tigertail in there right now
I would add more if I could find them (or any other cukes)
Maybe they will have some cucumbers at Fragstock tomorrow?
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- My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) -
* Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 *
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BobC63
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Posted: April 04 2012 at 12:53pm |
bur01014 wrote:
^+1
I like just enough sand for aesthetic reasons...how deep is your sandbed?
I know people may flame on me for this - but in all my tanks with Utah sand, I seemed to always have algae troubles...
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Only around 1" deep, maybe less in some spots
I have to admit I am wondering a liitle about the sand myself. Wondering if it is leaching a little pO4 and feeding the growth. I do feel like I have been using a ton of GFO and not seeing a huge change in the issue... I have used an entire pound of GFO to change out the media in my reactor 3 times in the last 2 weeks.
I am filling the reactor with more GFO per fill - and changing it more frequently - than when I had it on m 225g tank - and the sandbed in my 225 was cleaner...
I'll check when I get home tonight to see if going up to 2 full cups of GFO finally broke the cyano camel's back 
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* Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 *
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Jake Pehrson
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Posted: April 04 2012 at 1:44pm |
I would siphon it out as much as possible every day if needed. IMO kalk is your best option to raise the pH.
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BobC63
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Posted: April 04 2012 at 10:04pm |
Here are some pictures: But SPS color is good, and so is PE everywhere: See all the 'baby' heads?
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- My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) -
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McClure
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Posted: April 04 2012 at 11:05pm |
I say that Acan is probably causing all of the problems.... I would be glad to take it off your hands.... you know, in the interest of tank health and all. 
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kellerexpress
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Posted: April 05 2012 at 12:12am |
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I still think you need to get rid of your sand. Nice tank btw!
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IM 30L
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bur01014
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Posted: April 05 2012 at 10:17am |
Algae looks identical to the algae I learned to accept when running Utah sand.....I tried everything to get rid of it - finally I had added so much GFO my corals began to pale.....I resorted to mixing the sand a little before taking pics, only to find the algae return the next day or so. I agree- get rid of the utah sand and replace...
Edited by bur01014 - April 05 2012 at 10:18am
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