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Throne-of-monti 
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 Topic: Can't raise pH?!
Posted: April 06 2012 at 12:46pm |
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Over the course of the last week and a half my pH is running about 7.7-7.9I dosed it with seachem's marine pH buffer once when I first noticed a week and a half ago and once more about 3 days ago as I noticed its not going up... My fish are still happy but my birds nest started to lose some color and my digitora shortly followed. They were very happy before I noticed this problem and my calcium, KH and magnesium are all within range. Everything else seems to be okay but im not sure how to fix this problem or if the coral losing color is even related to this problem (I only assume since I noticed the color loss the same time the pH started having issues)
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Davidwillis
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Posted: April 06 2012 at 5:25pm |
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Do you have good gas exchange (turbulence on the surface of your tank)?
If your calcium and alkalinity are in line, then I don't think the ph is a big problem, but I will let others with more knowledge answer for sure. You could always drip kalc to bring it up.
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Throne-of-monti
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Posted: April 07 2012 at 12:14am |
well I'm not sure what constitutes as good but I will post a few pictures of the surface and where my powerheads are placed.  Its hard to capture the ripple effect with just my iTouch camera but I think you can get a pretty good idea. I have a Korelia 600 that I sit like this:  Which I have placed so I could see turbulence at the surface and to the left there is a little filter that I stock with carbon and it adds a little more flow right across my SPS shelf. I have a 425 which I have been toying with but currently sits here:  you can see from this picture the turbulence that it creates on the surface but I have contemplated moving it down and pointing upwards and to the left a little. I've just been fairly indecisive about it lately.
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Akira
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Posted: April 07 2012 at 2:48am |
I see u dont have many posts.....tells me new tank . correct? if ur mag isnt stable ur dk and ca wil be up and down , just a new thing . measure today and tom will be different , so when u dose wait 1 day then check , start with mag, if mag isnt stable u will just dose and dose to catch other params . (ca,dk) All here will help . IM Kurt 801 637-6113 24hr 7 for 1 week
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Aquarium Creations
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Posted: April 07 2012 at 6:39am |
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What is your Cal and alk numbers?
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Aquarium Maintenance,Consulting,Custom Built Glass Aquariums Rimless/Euro,24Hr Emergency Service 8015485201 Www.UtahAquariumDoctors.com [email protected]
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laynframe
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Posted: April 07 2012 at 8:11am |
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i dont pay much attention to ph, just make sure cal, alk and mag are in line!
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Throne-of-monti
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Posted: April 07 2012 at 9:58am |
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Its about 8-9 months old. My magnesium runs around 1400 almost all the time, as of this morning my alkalinity is 11.5 and my calcium is 500+. I did a water change yesterday and every time I do that my calcium shoots up, it tops my test at 500 so it could be anywhere above that.
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GaryF
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Posted: April 07 2012 at 11:19am |
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How are you testing for Ph? Probe? Test Strips? Drops?
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Gary Finnegan
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Throne-of-monti
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Posted: April 08 2012 at 1:34am |
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It's a salifert profi test kit
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Aquarium Creations
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Posted: April 08 2012 at 2:06am |
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Check the date and see how old it is, also have someone else test your water as well
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Aquarium Maintenance,Consulting,Custom Built Glass Aquariums Rimless/Euro,24Hr Emergency Service 8015485201 Www.UtahAquariumDoctors.com [email protected]
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Throne-of-monti
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Posted: April 08 2012 at 4:54pm |
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I just bought it 2 weeks ago, I'll have it tested it somewhere else though.
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: April 09 2012 at 11:57am |
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Can we see a full tank pic?
Frankly, I never test pH. It's a value that typically means nothing. Yes, this may sound a little crazy, but there is a reason for my craziness.
As long as the coral look good, the Alk and Ca levels are where the should be, the water surface is churning and the tank is not covered, then everything is fine.
pH typically follows Alkalinity. If Alk is good then pH is not worth the time and trouble of bothering with.
Do not add products that are specifically meant to raise pH. This will seriously screw up the water chemistry of reef aquarium.
Edited by Mark Peterson - April 09 2012 at 11:58am
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rufessor
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Posted: April 10 2012 at 10:11am |
Strange but true- your pH will shift with time of day... a bit- enough to measure easily. Another reason not to bother too much chasing it.
Your Ca and Alk look good- maybe too good. Which brings me to this question, 500 Ca is tough to keep without either a reactor, or almost daily supplementation with a liquid CaCl2 supplement and your stating that a water change actually brings it UP!????????
There is no salt premix that has anything even close to enough Ca in it to actually BRING up the Ca concentration in a tank to 500+. I am going to go out on a limb here and guess... your test is bad, or your doing it wrong... or there is something else your adding to your water your not telling us :)
Seriously- very very few aquariums run at 500+ calcium that do not have hundreds if not thousands of dollars invested in reactors and controllers- even running a concentrated lime water dip as ATO would not generally keep your Ca that high. My advice is to actually go to a store, pay them to test everything, then if its actually what your test is telling you, I would seriously consider letting it DROP by stopping some of the additive you HAVE to be running. 500+ is a TON of calcium for the "average" tank, unless your running a very serious SPS dominated tank you do not need to be anywhere near that high to get great growth. I have a fairly SPS dominated tank which is producing very nice growth, I never even bother worrying about Ca if its close to 400 and I am fairly certain I have never once seen a Ca reading higher than about 440 and I dose about 7 gallons of nearly saturated lime water as ATO EVERY WEEK by continuous drip. My tank eats it all, I have no (as in ZERO) precip of anything in the water.
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Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -A.E.
57 Gallon RImless build in progress check the thread before if becomes boring and just full of nice pictures of colorful coral!
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Throne-of-monti
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Posted: April 10 2012 at 10:39am |
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I use oceanic salt and I've heard it's pretty high in calcium and magnesium, I never does either ever. If there is a problem I just do a water change and it will up those two. KH however I dose almost daily.
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McClure
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Posted: April 10 2012 at 11:13am |
 rufessor wrote:
Seriously- very very few aquariums run at 500+ calcium that do not have hundreds if not thousands of dollars invested in reactors and controllers- even running a concentrated lime water dip as ATO would not generally keep your Ca that high. My advice is to actually go to a store, pay them to test everything, then if its actually what your test is telling you, I would seriously consider letting it DROP by stopping some of the additive you HAVE to be running. 500+ is a TON of calcium for the "average" tank |
My tank is at 500+ for calcium also, without dosing or using a reactor, testing with more than one test/brand of test.
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rufessor
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Posted: April 10 2012 at 11:46am |
Just decided I made to many mistakes typing this so quickly at work. I want to help, not hurt so here is a condensed version. I did not mean to offend anyone by saying that if your stable at 500+ Ca your simply not using it up... but its just a very very high number to maintain without supplementation which appears to be the case...
Sea water by virtue of the carbonate alkalinity = carbonic acid and bicarbonate and carbonate, buffers much more against RISES in pH than it does against drops. in the pH range we care about, and given your very high Alk and Ca its going to be even harder to push it up, just give it time without adding things and it really should even out.
Also, at high Ca you can enter into a pH/Alk combination that promotes precipitation of Ca Carbonate out of the water. Complete precipitation of ALL carbonate would only marginally drop your Ca levels. So- I think 500 is really high and this combined with the Alk pH buffering phenomena could be part of your problem. If your seeing alk change a lot day to day but your calcium appears "steady" remember that at 500+ Ca you can remove by precipitation ALL of the carbonate and change the Ca level by only little bit, (would have to do the math but it would almost certainly remain WELL above 400)... this would of course almost certainly stress the tank beyond the capacity of any corals. So, this is why its better to keep things more in the middle of the range, I don't know of many individuals that advocate for over 500 Ca, its just too high and brings with it too many issues.
My comment about water changes was simply this, if your salt is mixing at above 500 Ca, and your water changes are bringing you over 500Ca, unless your making really really regular water changes of LARGE percentage - its obvious your not using a lot of Ca up. So, since over 500 is really well outside of a normal level- I would recommend you try to see what can be done to bring things to a more typical level. pH is mostly going to be influenced by the C02 exchange with air and the concentration of C02 where the aquarium is (house, work whatever)- you don't have much to say about it (I completely agree with Mark do NOT add anything to directly influence pH).
I guess All I am saying is that things seem just a bit out of balance- try to bring them into a more normal range. Ca and Alk are linked, and there are MANY posts of very experienced aquarists that regard Alk levels in the range your testing to, which is linked to your Ca level in part, as TOO high.
Everyone does things differently, I figure the ocean has it pretty much figured out, so for me I try to hit over 400 but dont worry much past that in Ca. Alk at that level is going to be lower by a LOT than your reading.
I will say this, the only time I have ever killed something by a direct consequence of an action I took, was using Alk supplements and chasing a value I didn't need to chase. Its hard to be sure what causes what, but for the most part I would just stop with supplements if they are being added because of a pH reading. Then I would wait, see how it goes for a week or two and test WEEKLY. Go slow, don't make radical changes, think about if you really want to be in the 500 range for Ca given the attendant Alk levels your seeing- most tanks run more like 400-450 with Alk 6-8 or even a lot lower than that.
I get nervous when I start approaching the edges of "known" safe parameters.
Yes- Oceanic is REALLY REALLY high in Ca.
Edited by rufessor - April 10 2012 at 4:41pm
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Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -A.E.
57 Gallon RImless build in progress check the thread before if becomes boring and just full of nice pictures of colorful coral!
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McClure
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Posted: April 10 2012 at 11:57am |
 Loving that response.
Edited by McClure - April 10 2012 at 11:57am
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DLindquist
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Posted: April 15 2012 at 12:59am |
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Over the years, I've heard a number of people state not to bother testing PH. I realize there's not much to do to correct low PH, as long as you've got good surface agitation and a decent turnover rate. However, anytime my digital read out shows a PH lower than 8, my Alk has also been low. Recently, I had a reading in the 7.7 range. Low and behold, my Alk was in the 6.2 range. So for me, having my PH continuously monitored is also a back up for my Alk levels. You know, for those times I get too complacent and don't test like I should.
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phys
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Posted: April 15 2012 at 2:55am |
there could be a possibility that your water may have calcium In it thats mixing with your salt. Check that before misxing? Try a different water source and check that mix? If your salt has high Ca, then get another type and mix them to see if that brings it down. test the water before adding to see what its like before its mixed in the tank.
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eldiente
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Posted: April 15 2012 at 1:47pm |
I use Oceanic salt too with RO water and it is always 500+ for Ca with my Salifert tests. The dK is usually 8.0-8.2 for Alk. I really like Oceanic, I seem to get a hair algae bloom everytime I try a different salt. What salts do others like/use? sorry for the hijack but interested in what others do. Instant Ocean and Reef Crystals are what I have switched from and try occasionally when I run out of salt and in a pinch as they are the only other options in my town. Just curious but occasionally i add a little baking soda to up the dK reading in my new saltwater when i am mixing it. Is that a bad idea? I don't add much but I like to keep my alk around 9-10.
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Brian
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