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Green hair algea

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jaschall View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaschall Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2012 at 7:49pm
Ive had better luck with the yellow tang eating hair algea in my tank.
Right now there is a few on the board, also Bill in ogden might have
a one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2012 at 9:40pm
Most algae that we deal with needs 3 things to grow:
White Light (as opposed to Actinic light)
Nitrogen
Phosphorus

A 50% water change will reduce PO4 to .9 which is still not low enough. Instead of messing with large water changes, I'd turn off all white lights now and leave them off while the algae problem is addressed.

It's really hit or miss with fish that will eat Hair Algae. Tangs, Rabbitfish, Blennies, all the same. It's a crap shoot.

That's why snails are best. They always eat algae.
But the PO4 must first be reduced, not only to make it possible to keep snails, but to keep algae from growing. I suspect some of the Marco Rock is full of PO4.
Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davidwillis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2012 at 7:49am
Originally posted by Mark Peterson Mark Peterson wrote:

Most algae that we deal with needs 3 things to grow:
White Light (as opposed to Actinic light)
Nitrogen
Phosphorus

A 50% water change will reduce PO4 to .9 which is still not low enough. Instead of messing with large water changes, I'd turn off all white lights now and leave them off while the algae problem is addressed.

It's really hit or miss with fish that will eat Hair Algae. Tangs, Rabbitfish, Blennies, all the same. It's a crap shoot.

That's why snails are best. They always eat algae.
But the PO4 must first be reduced, not only to make it possible to keep snails, but to keep algae from growing. I suspect some of the Marco Rock is full of PO4.
Smile


Have people had problems with Marco Rock in the past?  I have not heard of it before (but I have never looked into Marco Rock).  I would think they would be really careful about something like that, because if they made rock full of PO4 they would be out of business in no time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote willrileyiv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2012 at 12:41pm
turbo snails!!!!!! i had a few rocks starting to get covered in hair algea and i picked up 4 turbo snails from fish 4 you for my 46 gallon and the next morning i wake up to over half the algea gone. they are almost finished cleaning the rocks and i even have a few new coral starting on the rock out of no where.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ann_A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2012 at 12:55pm
Originally posted by willrileyiv willrileyiv wrote:

turbo snails!!!!!! i had a few rocks starting to get covered in hair algea and i picked up 4 turbo snails from fish 4 you for my 46 gallon and the next morning i wake up to over half the algea gone. they are almost finished cleaning the rocks and i even have a few new coral starting on the rock out of no where.

Turbo snails are like saltwater lawnmowers. I don't like that much because once the algae is gone they will go all over the place looking for algae and in the process they often topple corals and small rocks that aren't very well secured.

Also, you really should hold off on snails until you get the phosphates down. I would use LFS water until you know what is causing the phosphates, and do a good size water change. Plus, run activated alumina. All of this should help eliminate the algae.

Phosphates can certainly cause cyanobacteria, because it will feed on them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote herrera Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2012 at 2:34pm
Originally posted by Mark Peterson Mark Peterson wrote:

I suspect some of the Marco Rock is full of PO4.

Shoot, definitely should have mentioned that when I started the tank 60-70% of rock was dead Pukani, and reef saver from BRS. seeded with live Fiji, and live sand, and 30% live water.  but if that is what caused high p04 why take over 7 months for algae outbreak?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2012 at 6:38pm
Old dead LR is full of stuff that effects a reef tank in many ways for a long time. I put together a special cautionary Tip about this in the WMAS Reefkeeping Tips linked below.

The old coral and/or Calcium Carbonate Rocks being mined from the ground in Florida have tended to be high in PO4. By comparison, Utah Rock/LBTR has hardly any PO4. The recommendation is to place Florida rock in RO water for a week or two, changed every few days to leach out and discard the PO4.

It's hard to say without knowing more of the history of this tank, the specifics of why the two algae grew like this, but this much I can say. It's a delicate balance of growth and predation. To the newer hobbyist, algae problems lurk unnoticed as a fuzz on the rocks. All of a sudden one day, 3-12 months later the hobbyist comes here in a rush saying that algae has bloomed out of control. We have all experienced it. Ugly Green Haired Mermaid It happens to even the best hobbyists from time to time, if they aren't watching. Smile

Sometimes we discover that the newer hobbyist did not understand the extreme importance of having a good population of snails each night scouring the rocks and glass, beginning from the first month.

Sometimes it's a lack of understanding the importance of balancing herbivores and carnivores. The presence of algae eating bugs is an almost invisible nighttime algae eating army, but when bug eating fish like Wrasse, Pseudochromis, Royal Gramma, Damsels or Mandarin are added to the tank, the bug population becomes early morning breakfast and late evening dinner. As these fish consume the bugs, little by little the algae eating army declines and the algae bursts out unchecked. Without adding more snails or an algae eating fish to compensate early on, the algae has a heyday. There is an article about this here. June 2001 Sea Star Newsletter - "Herbivores versus Carnivores"
Big smile
Hope this helps

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ann_A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2012 at 6:47pm
Originally posted by Mark Peterson Mark Peterson wrote:

To the newer hobbyist, algae problems lurk unnoticed as a fuzz on the rocks. All of a sudden one day, 3-12 months later the hobbyist comes here in a rush saying that algae has bloomed out of control. We have all experienced it. Ugly Green Haired Mermaid It happens to even the best hobbyists from time to time, if they aren't watching. Smile

That was me when I first started in this hobby. I ended up with enough algae that anyone who had grass would be jealous of the green in my tank! LOL

I went in there everyday with a pair of scissors and trimmed it as short as I could and then pulled as much of the remaining stuff off the rocks. After figuring out that I needed a ton more snails, I finally got the algae at least somewhat controlled. I also learned that I had crap rock and it was leaching phosphates and nitrates into the water, which is almost certainly happening with your tank.

Best thing to do here is cut the lights for about 3 days, or at least everything but the actinics. Do water changes with clean water (no phosphates), and once the phosphates are low enough, ADD SNAILS!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2012 at 6:49pm
Originally posted by Davidwillis Davidwillis wrote:

Have people had problems with Marco Rock in the past?  I have not heard of it before (but I have never looked into Marco Rock).  I would think they would be really careful about something like that, because if they made rock full of PO4 they would be out of business in no time.
I'm thinking that this may be the major reason for the increasing incidence of high PO4 readings that we are seeing among hobbyist's aquariums. Business is booming for the companies that distribute AA and GFO to the hobby. Wacko
Most people leave the hobby before two years are up, so they may not have time to learn that their problems were associated with the cool looking rock they bought in their valiant effort to save the world's reefs.
Unhappy



Edited by Mark Peterson - May 10 2012 at 6:50pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote herrera Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2012 at 10:36pm
My 40lbs of dead rock was soaked in vinegar for 3 days. then added to salt water tub with 20lbs live rock with circulation, and frequent water changes for 3 weeks until, ammonia, and nitrites read 0
 
Today I had my water tested
This was really strange but my RO TDS read 37 instead of 87 which it read last week.
Tap water read 340 TDS
RO PO4 read .02
i purchased Phosguard, and placed it in a media bag in HOB filter. cutting lights to 6 hours a day with only actinic.  How can i be sure it's the rock that is the source of high PO4?
should i place a piece in a bucket with fresh salt water, and check PO4 in a week or so?
125g Aggressive tank
SWC-Xtreme cone prtein skimmer
40g Sump
------------------------------
16g Innovative Marine Reef
AI led 75W
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davidwillis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2012 at 8:47am
I would say the eliminates your RO water as the problem (if the test is accurate).  Mark can probably give better advice on how to test your rock, but your idea sounds good to me.  However you will have to keep the temperature up in your bucket, and I would add a power head for circulation.  If you have any die off on the rock, then it will give you a false reading.

I forget, do you have a pressure tank connected to your RO unit?  If so, that would be the reason why your TDS readings are up and down.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote herrera Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2012 at 3:12pm
yes i have a pressure tank
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2012 at 3:59pm
"My 40lbs of dead rock was soaked in vinegar for 3 days. then added to salt water tub with 20lbs live rock with circulation, and frequent water changes for 3 weeks until, ammonia, and nitrites read 0"
Please read the Tip about using old dry dead LR. This is serious business and the effects of using it cannot be accurately predicted. Nitrogen pollution is just one of many consequences of re-introducing old dry dead LR to a reef aquarium. The vinegar may have slightly altered the effects but did not avoid the the consequences. I've seen this many times. That's why I wrote the Tip.
 
"Today I had my water tested
This was really strange but my RO TDS read 37 instead of 87 which it read last week.
Tap water read 340 TDS"
Sorry, but to me that's not strange at all. I've been working in the hobby for a long time. Dave gave one reason and there are several more I could describe if you are interested.

"RO PO4 read .02
i purchased Phosguard, and placed it in a media bag in HOB filter. cutting lights to 6 hours a day with only actinic."
Thumbs Up Very Good. 0.02 is the top of the acceptable range for PO4. It is easily dealt with at that level using AA/Phosguard. I'll bet that PO4 is leaching from both types of rock and maybe the sand, though I can't remember if you told us where the sand came from. It wasn't old dry dead LS was it?

"How can i be sure it's the rock that is the source of high PO4?"
At this point it's not really that important to know whether its the rock or the sand because we can resolve it as outlined further below. I can pretty confidently say it's the rock and/or sand for several reasons:
1) water with a TDS reading like that would not supply enough PO4 to give a reading of .02 PO4 during an algae bloom.

2) No other source could provide that much PO4 during an algae bloom. Normally during an algae bloom PO4 is only slightly detectable, as are the N levels, because the algae is eating it up.

Instead of changing out some nice rock and/or sand which would be a shame to lose, I would just clear up the problem. This will also allow the tank to continue to mature in all other ways. To fix the problem the weird substances coming out of the LR/LS need to be absorbed. I'd buy either some Polyfilter or Chemipure. Polyfilter is better, but the only LFS that I ever saw carry it was Fish-4-U. I buy it online (google search "polyfilter") for around $7 per pad. It's all made by the same manufacturer so just buy it at the best price. I'd get a 3-pac because this will probably require all three pads one after the other. Chemipure is more available locally but 3 lots of it is more expensive. Polyfilter and Chemipure say they are rechargable, but it's not worth it because they are nowhere near as good after the first use.

After the Polyfilter or Chemmipure has been running for a few days, I'd add one or two snails and watch carefully to see if they survive and pull them out immediately when dead, so they don't add to the pollution problem. Might as well try some large Pacific Turbo Snails, since there aren't any delicate coral to worry about falling to the sand. If these snails survive a week, that says it's safe to add more. Be sure to acclimate the snails just as you would a fish. Large snails are not as forgiving as small snails. Acclimation procedure is discussed in the Reefkeeping Tip "Secrets of Adding New Fish....". That's about it for now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote herrera Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2012 at 8:00pm
Great info thanks Mark! 100% of sand was Natures Ocean Bio-Activ live sand.
I actually added Chemipure last week the first time i had RO TDS checked. So i will order some Polyfilter in the mean time.  When should i pull out the chemipure?
 
Also My 125g is starting to have a light Algae. the tank read .08 PO4. I added Phosguard yesterday in my reactor. I underdosed as if i were treating 100g instead of 125. And today the Some of my Zoas look sick.  But other types were not effected at all. here is a before and after.
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote herrera Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2012 at 8:51pm
so is this stuff a no no, and if so why? obviously it would only get rid of the PO4 in the water, not what cause it. But wouldn't it help control the outbreak while i cure the route of the problem?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2012 at 12:00pm
I'm passionate about adding chemicals to maintain water parameters like Alk and Ca, but I hate using chemical additives to control things that can be controlled naturally.
The algae fix looks like a bad product.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote herrera Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2012 at 3:01pm
Bump on some more info on my poor Zoas. This started when i added Phosban, but could just be a coincidence, and possibly those bugs that kill zoas? if so, what should i do to make sure there are no Zoa killer bugs?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2012 at 10:45am
As you probably know, Coral will go through times of retraction and re-hydration. This is normal and sometimes happens when any aspect of water quality changes due to some kind of change in maintenance, in this case the use of AA/Phosguard.

Just for your information, I doubt it's a Zoanthid eating bug or slug. Pests can be removed before adding coral by dipping the coral in products designed for that purpose. From the look of those few shrunken coral in the pics, I wouldn't worry just yet. Wait for a week, watch to see if polyps start to slime or to disappear before worrying that it could be a pest.

Regarding the light algae in the 125, the best solution is not chemical media but rather the number of snails. Snails are a long term solution to keeping algae under control. Add more snails so the total comes closer to one snail for every 1-2 gallons. From the pics the rock is actually fairly clean so my opinion is that it won't take many more snails to do the job. How many snails are there and how long has it been since adding snails?

Regarding the other tank, the Chemi-pure will be exhausted within 1-4 weeks. I state that variance because we don't know how much pollution/toxins the old dry dead LR is leaching into the water and because it will continue to leach as the water gets cleaned of the toxins. The GFO is also pulling out the extra PO4, so these are 2 things that need to be reduced and it may not be just a one time deal. Using more of both products will depend on how the tank is doing at that time.
Testable PO4 levels below 0.02 ppm will be one indicator that the tank is recovering.
Untestable levels of toxins will be the other, with Snails living or dieing as the indicator.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote herrera Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 31 2012 at 11:12pm
so since my last post i have been using Phosguard,  polyfilters, and only have only been running white lights for 3 hours a day. I believe the algae growth has slowed, but still pretty bad.I also bought my own TDS meter. which I've been having a lot of fun with haha.  I've tested a whole bunch of tap waters, and bottled waters for fun.
My tap is 280ppm, my RO is 36ppm when the tank is full, once it is empty and starts to fill my buck slowly the TPS lowers to 22ppm.  so my 5 gallon bucket averages out to  27ppm when full. 
These are much lower numbers than what the LFS tds meter showed. Not sure which one is accurate. but Being RO is 27ppm is this acceptable? I purchased ro filters, and membrane, but have not switched them out. should i just switch out the filters?
 
Also I want to buy my own PO4 tester. does anyone have any experience with this digital tester? and why can it only to 25 tests?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2012 at 12:14am
Ok so i just lost 30 mins of my life reading this post , here is what i learned ...... Im still a bigger ass than Mark could ever be , i have way less knowledge than most on here , Ann is wise beyond her years , everyone has a different opinion , Herrera has a bad case algae .......did i cover it all ?  So my limited experience showed ... i removed a ton of cotton candy algae and my PO4 skyrocketed , reactor solved it , cotton candy was eating it before i removed it . so what caused it ? No clue but will be following this post closely till I figure it out .
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