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Trying to cycle, no ammonia

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aceofspadeskb View Drop Down
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    Posted: April 30 2013 at 8:46am

I'm at a loss.  I have a new setup that I am trying to cycle.  I have had a dead, rotting shrimp in the tank for over a week now and my test kit has yet to read anything above .25 for ammonia. 

 
A little more information:
55 gallon tank
20 gallon sump with chaeto fuge section
Running temperature ~80 degrees
~65 lbs Bulk Reef Supply reef saver DRY rock
~50 lbs CaribSea aragonite sand bed(the variety that ships dry)
1 small piece of live rock from a friends existing tank(about the size of a child's fist).
1 cup of live sand from a generous forum member(you know who you are, and you are awesome!)
 
.25 ammonia
0 Nitrite
0 Nitrate
 
Any ideas?  I was under the impression that a decomposing shrimp would kick of a cycle in a "big way."  Also, last night I poked at the shrimp with a fish net and the thing blew up into a could of tiny pieces...there wasn't much left of him.  This morning, still .25 ammonia.
 
Thanks in advance!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chuckfu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2013 at 9:08am
Take your water into a LFS and have them check it against your test kit.  Maybe it's not reading correctly.
Try, try, try, then give up!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aceofspadeskb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2013 at 9:19am
I'm afraid "local fish store" means an hour long drive for me.  I haven't ruled out a faulty test kit though.  I have been using this test kit:
 
Anyone else have problems with API test kits?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2013 at 10:31am
Aloha,

My bet is that the test kits are reading correctly.
It sounds to me that the tank is doing just what it was set up to do - avoid the dreaded Nitrogen Cycle. The shrimp isn't really necessary and it's pollution is already being eaten by the algae and bacteria. As the bioload increases, the Nitrite and Nitrate levels will rise, but not any higher than acceptable. If you send me a pic of the tank and of the refugium or post them here, we can discuss it more. My phone is 808-345-1049.

Mark Hug
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aceofspadeskb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2013 at 10:43am
Here is the only picture I have.  Under the light in the refugium I have a clump of Chaeto about the size of a volleyball.  You can't see them very well in the picture but there are two koralia poweheads on either side of the tank pointing toward the surface.
 
Do you think I'm safe to add fish then?  I'll be doing the reef tour this weekend so I'll actually be able to stop by a fish store or two.  Otherwise it will be either overnight shipping the poor fellas or waiting another month for my next trip down south.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aceofspadeskb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2013 at 11:47am
Better pictures coming tonight after work.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ReefOn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2013 at 12:13pm
I would not add fish with any ammonia present. Sounds to me like there is not enough bacteria to consum the ammonia present. What you want to do is overnight some live bacteria, dose the ammonia to 2ppm then add the bacteria, you should see the ammonia drop to zero over a few days, then you can add fish as long as the nitrites are zero, if you can't add fish, you need to add ammonia keeping it at .25 until the day before adding the fish load.

Did this on a 16,000 gallon aquarium and added 400 fish at day 5. Less than 1% fish loss over the following weeks.

Feel free to pm me with any specific questions, I don't check threads very often, but had someone direct me to this one after this exact conversation yesterday.

Thanks
Jerry


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2013 at 7:23pm
Aloha,

Thanks for sending me closer images. Here is the Refugium pic you sent.


A bunch of soft coral and a few fish will not be a problem in that tank if also at the same time you can do the following:

1. Add some LS from existing mature tanks(the more the merrier) from the Reef Tour where possible and agreeable with the hobbyist. Scoop sand out in a wide mouth bottle/container and leave the water with it, half full of air, just as you would transport a live fish. If you have some sand left over from your set up, or would like to take some of the clean new sand from your tank, a trade is usually welcomed. During the RT and the trip home, open the bottle(s) every two hours or so to give it some fresh air. When placeing this LS in your tank, tip and slowly submerge the bottle into your water and down to the sand. Then pour it out of the bottle right onto the sand. This helps avoid a storm of crud that would happen if you poured the sand out at the water surface. Smile

2. Add some LR from an existing tank. 2-3 pieces totaling 3-10 lbs should do fine. Transfer the LR submerged during the process from that tank to a bucket and then to this tank. Take a bucket of newly mixed saltwater on the Reef Tour and ask the people you visit if you can have, or buy, a fist size or larger piece of LR from their Refugium or display. If you have some of the dry rock left, offer to trade. Moving the LR submerged is a little bit of a hassle but it pays off big dividends. Rock moved submerged never misses a beat in it's ability to do it's job of biofiltration.
A four qt. plastic ice cream bucket or similar sized bucket works really well for dipping into the existing tank, transferring the rock and lifting it out and over to the bucket. If transferring it submerged is not possible or practical, move it directly from tank to bucket in a millisecond to avoid as little water as possible to drain out of the rock. If exposed to air, when first submerging in your tank, turn twist and shake to get the air out of the holes. During transport, open the bucket of LR to fresh air every two hours or so, more often if the bucket is more than 2/3 full of water. Smile

3. Ask for as much Macroalgae as you can carry home, within reason.Embarrassed Macroalgae in the display is awesome for Tangs. It makes them feel so immediately at home and gives them something good to graze on.

4. Have the Refugium light as close to the water surface as possible, accounting for the high level when the return pump is off and have it on 24/7 for at least a week. Algae likes a day night cycle so eventually it can go back to a reverse photosynthesis arrangement. Use the highest wattage light bulb as possible. Tie the Refugium light fixture to the underside of the stand or a pipe with zip ties or something secure so that it can never fall into the water. Below is a rough drawing of what I do.

Maybe I'll see you on the Reef Tour,
Mark Hug

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Morlaz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2013 at 9:37pm
Pee in it Tongue
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red sea max 250
BioCube 29 HQI



Gallery http://imgur.com/a/yIRJk
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2013 at 9:06am
the magic ingredient
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aceofspadeskb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2013 at 9:12am
I can't ever tell if people are being serious about the urine method...nor am I sure I would try it if I were to find that it is legitimateWacko
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote soundsurfer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2013 at 4:33pm

Another good option is borrowing a filter sock from someones tank after about two weeks and right before they do a water change and change the sock.  Take it to your tank and soak it and squeeze the good stuff from there into you filter sock or HOB filter whatever you have.   If you have a capful or less of pure ammonia with no additives, not fragrances, no emulsifiers, you can use that....but really a capful or half a cap of your own urine is perfectly fine.  Some people might think its wrong, but it contains urea which is broken down to ammonia, then nitrite and nitrates.   The toxins and other things if any would be taken up by carbon.   I have cycled a few tanks this way under three weeks with dry sand and dry live rock.    Do a capful or half a cap the day after you squeeze all the stuff from the sock, and then another capful or half a cap maybe three to four days later.  After a week you can put in a very small piece of shrimp. To keep the cycle going through its normal run as if feeding fish.  After a week remove the shrimp if not completely decomposed.  Test a few days later for the regular guys.....ammonia, nitrites, nitrates. If not Zero on the first two wait a few more days.  Should go pretty quick since there is tons of beneficial bacteria for both amm/trites/trates in those filter socks after skimming a tank for awhile because a fair amount of decomposition goes on in them. MAKE SURE ITS FROM A TRUSTED TANK WITH NO BAD BUGS, BAD ALGAES, or AIPTASIA.

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