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New Guy - First Reef Tank :)

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Blake View Drop Down
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    Posted: August 22 2013 at 2:14pm
So I am new to the world of saltwater tanks, but excited to get started. I had a freshwater tank for many years and have always wanted to try out a reef tank! I don't have much in terms of expenses so I am going to use my existing 30gal tank. I know it isnt to big and its harder to manage smaller volumes of water, but in terms of cost it will make more sense for me. Also, I may be moving within the year and a 30 gallon tank seems easier to move :)

So I'm looking for some help. I've read quit a bit but there seems to be many different options/methods for filtering. Enough to leave me a little confused. So here is what I think will best help me understand. I've read about all sorts of things, sumps, protein skimmers, refugiums, power heads, pumps, etc... I guess what would help me understand best is what exactly I need to be monitoring (like salinity, nitrates, etc) and what I use to keep them in check. For example to help keep nitrate levels in check use a protein skimmer (I hope I'm right in saying that).

I know its a lot to answer so I am happy if someone can point me to a good article or other online source :) So far I think I've decided that I want to use a sump to help increase my water volume. Probably a 10 gallon sump because I think i have an extra 10 gallon tank and it will fit under my 30 gallon tank out of sight. I don't know exactly how to set up the sump yet, or what exactly to put in it because I've read so many things :) Anyway, I really appreciate the help! i'm excited to get things started :)
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AcroNem View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AcroNem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 22 2013 at 2:39pm
Welcome welcome! My number is at the bottom of this reply I'm here to help any time you need it. Also I'm in Orem so I can come help personally as well.
It's true that smaller tanks are harder to maintain especially when you're new. Are you wanting to set up FOWLR (fish only with love rock) or a reef tank? That's one of the first things to decide because then you'll be able to decide what lighting and filtration will suit you best.
On to one of your other comments, protein skimmers are indeed helpful. But in my ten years of keeping reefs and tanks ranging from 1.5gallon to 210 gallons I've only set up one tank that had a skimmer on it and never saw problems either way. gotta know the rules to break them right? Haha.

Like I said I'm very close to you and my phone number is attached you can text or call any time. Or any other questions you have there are tons of helpful people here on the forum. Looking forward to your tanks!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Molli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 22 2013 at 3:01pm
There's others on here far more experienced than I who can give advice. 
 
Only advice I can give at this time is take it SLOW.  Do not rush things.  Let your tank cycle and add slowly .. very slowly.  Slow is worth the effort in the long run for a newbie in my opinion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AcroNem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 22 2013 at 3:16pm
But any advice is good (: I agree, when I first started (I was way young so don't judge Haha) new tank syndrom almost killed my tank. I heard another member on the forum not too long ago say "the ocean wasn't stocked in a day".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 22 2013 at 3:56pm
One thing I've noticed by running different kinds of tanks ranging from 200 gl sump to 14 gl nano 5 tanks and 3 sumps total mixed reefs, reefs, and predator, is you have to find an even balance that works for you and your tank. All advice is good advice, one thing I have to remind myself is a lot of advice works for others and it may or may not work for me and my system, which is okay. Like molli said take it slow and over time you'll learn what's norm, what's not, and what's good for the system your running. For example I've learned I can't keep anemones. no matter how perfect my water is or my lighting I can't keep them alive but I've been able to do things that a lot of people say is a no no, such as keep 5 yellow tangs in one tank living in harmony (schooled). And just as acroman said you have to know the rules before you can break them. It's all very confusing at first but it will make since over time, you'll learn through trial and error, this site is amazing for knowledge and advice. Keep us updated on how things are coming along!
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Blake View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 22 2013 at 4:29pm
First, although I'm replying specifically to AcroNem, I want to say thank you to everyone that has offered their advice so freely! I just wanted to answer some of the questions AcroNem asked :)

So to answer your question of whether i'd like a FOWLR (learned a new acronym) or a reef tank. I would like to do a reef tank unless it is strongly advised not to for my first saltwater tank.

Also, good to know about the protein skimmer. If I don't need it, then I don't mind saving myself the money :) So do you just use live rock and or refugium to help instead of a protein skimmer?

and Thank you sooo much for offering the personal help outside of the forums! I will probably take you up on that. when I start buying and putting my tank together!! :) I'm pretty excited.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ghetto Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 22 2013 at 4:51pm
Blake,

A skimmer is always helpful as it removes organic waste and helps keep the water clean.  A refugium can help with this, and so can water changes.  If you don't have too much livestock (fish, coral, inverts, etc.) and you don't feed too much, it is less of an issue.  

There are a lot of ways to do things in this hobby and there is no single right solution.  I'd recommend that you continue reading this forum, meet people and see their tanks (anyone on here will welcome you into their home), and talk to Mark Peterson.  He knows how to build a reef on a budget as well as anyone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hydro phoenix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 22 2013 at 5:07pm
Welcome to the WMAS! We hope you always get great advice and come to the meetings. First Thursday of every month at 7pm at the Rose Garden just east of Sugarhouse Park. Sept meeting will be full of coral frags at an attractive price. See you there!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PDoug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 22 2013 at 5:48pm
1. Still Water is Dead water. 2.You will notice there are natural filtrations and mechanical most people Buy their equipment Piece by Piece and add the skimmer after the Lights and Pumps at the end. If you are not going to run a skimmer talk to the Godfather of natural Mark Peterson and ask him about natural filtration as long as you take it easy you could run without a sump and just use macroalgae and carbon to suck up what the skimmer would get out. When you do setup ask as many people as you can for a cup of sand and get a tiny piece of clean good liverock from as many tanks as you can. (I am just rejoining as well Good Luck)   
(307)679-7898 Phillip Douglass 75 Gallon Reef Tank
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AcroNem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 22 2013 at 8:55pm
This is true, not everyone's way of keeping a reef will work for another. If you choose to run a skimmer there is no problem with it at all, but yes it can quite easily be done without one as long as you continue your required maintenance. A reef is very doable and I won't advise you not to set one up. Like I said previously there are loads of helpful people on here and it's simply up to you to choose which you'd like to follow. Sometimes it's simply trial and error. But this hobby doesn't have to be near as complicated as it seems. (:

Edited by AcroNem - August 22 2013 at 8:56pm
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Thirteenth year keeping reefs, always here to talk fish.
801-850-7577.
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If you're interested, you could swing by and check out our system 270G, 400 total volume.
A government strong enough to give you everything you want, is powerful enough to take everything you have.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djknauss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 22 2013 at 9:50pm
i like to use a skimmer just to see how much "gunk" it can pull out of the water. I also have a refugium in the sump which should help to remove excess nutrients, but i still like seeing if there is any "leftover" that the skimmer can get. a skimmer should make things lower maintenance - which i love. ive seen used ones for pretty cheap ~$40, and they do just fine.

setting up the sump the first time can be intimidating, and costly if you go to the LFS to get everything, so i'd recommend enlisting the help of someone who has already done it and who might also have some extra parts laying around. that way you can do water top-offs, add chemicals (or supplements for the reef), all in the sump, which helps it get all mixed up before it enters the display tank. also you can throw the thermometer in there etc..
a good stand should have room for a sump tank underneath


Edited by djknauss - August 22 2013 at 9:54pm
55 gallons of impulsive additions and subtractions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Teknik777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 22 2013 at 9:51pm
Welcome! To me the skimmer is the heart of the system! Water quality is key, and success comes with consistency. Water flow is huge! Salinity and temp and alk need to be very consistent. Maintain the big three alk, cal, and mag within acceptable range. keep nitrates and phosphates low. There are many ways to.be successful in this hobby. Find a tank you love and copy everything they do for a soild foundation, then you can grow and learn from there. pm me anytime. buy corals/frags locally and see tanks ask questions best way to learn. Most important have fun and don't forget to just sit and watch your tank.    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AcroNem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 22 2013 at 11:23pm
If may offer a reply to what Teknik777 said not too long ago. I agree with you, water quality is definitely a key to a successful system. But having crystal clear water doesn't mean it's good quality. Neither is nasty yellow water hahaha. Just food for thought. And yes, at the heart of all this it has to be fun. oh and one more key welcome phrase...welcome to the money pit (; i
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Teknik777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 23 2013 at 1:06am
I agree but I did say water quality not water clarity. Acronem is 100% right in having fun and collecting what you love weather its fish, sps, zoas, acans, chalices, lps its all beautiful and the best part of this hobby!

Originally posted by AcroNem AcroNem wrote:

If may offer a reply to what Teknik777 said not too long ago. I agree with you, water quality is definitely a key to a successful system. But having crystal clear water doesn't mean it's good quality. Neither is nasty yellow water hahaha. Just food for thought. And yes, at the heart of all this it has to be fun. oh and one more key welcome phrase...welcome to the money pit (; i
220 G SPS Display.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 23 2013 at 12:39pm
Thank you! I've gotten so much helpful feed back :) while it sounds like the skimmer is optional it also sounds like it might make things easier to maintain? Am I right? For my first tank, and since its a 30 gallon (smaller volume) it sounds like a skimmer may help me maintain the proper levels easier. That being said does anyone have recommendations for a decent skimmer? inexpensive is great. 

I THINK i have an extra 10 gallon tank at home that I can set up as a sump. My thought is to split it into 3 parts have my skimmer in the first section, a refugium in the middle (which i'll probably set up at a latter time, id just like to have the option in the future) and in the 3rd section a return pump. If I don't have my 10 gallon tank I did find this sump on ebay. Seems like a good price. I just wanted thoughts.

Also would this size of a sump be large if i upgraded my tank size in the future. I'm thinking between 55-75 gallon? 

Thanks for the information, let know on my plan/thoughts so far! :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1stupidpunk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 23 2013 at 1:02pm
Your sump can be as large as you can fit/afford, but most people try to double their water volume on smaller tanks. You can even choose not use a sump if the space doesnt allow it and use HoB skimmers/filters. If your not wanting to use the 10g i would wait till petsmart has their $1 per gallon sale and pick up a 40g breeder.
 
As far as your question about if you should set up a reef tank thats up to your personal preference. There is absolutely no reason you couldnt dive into a reef once everything is cycled (most of us start out with softies as they tend to be easier to care for).
 
Also keep your eyes on the classified section on here there is always really good deals on used equipment (i would actually recommend not buying anything new if you want to keep an affordable tank)... a lot of nice people on here will often give away some macro and/or frags to new reef keepers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dionysus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 23 2013 at 1:33pm
I had a 10 gallon sump at one time. Here's two pictures ones when I first set It up and after It was on my tank. I have to agree with the skimmer being the heart of the tank. Started with a seclone skimmer then got a ASM mini G skimmer back then and loved it.

AquaMedic 250 Watt XM 20k
2 420s Vhos
29 DT SPS Dominant
20 G Long Frag

My Tank Progress =)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 25 2013 at 8:04am
Aloha Blake,

You have done the best thing you could do, find this forum and all the help it has to offer. There are so many helpful hobbyists... and many live close to you. Visiting others and seeing their setups is one of the best ways to get into this hobby with the minimum of mistakes and maximum enjoyment.

The key to using the plethora of information from the internet is knowing which information is correct and determining which methods will work for your situation. This club was formed so we could help each other in that regard.

After many years in this hobby, I have come to the understanding that the major part of salt water aquarium filtration, 90% or more, is the living part. It is the algae, bacteria, bugs, worms and coral that live in and on the rock, sand, and water. It's kind of gross but in the marine environment, the waste of one organism is food for another.

Good water movement is critical to the environment where that life, most of it sessile, can breathe, eat and excrete.  That is why many hobbyists find that after pumps and lighting, the next best supplemental equipment is either a particulate filter or a skimmer. I would add that Activated Carbon(AC) is a must for all reef aquariums.

The link in my signature line below, WMAS Reefkeeping Tips, goes over some basics of setting up the tank, what to monitor and how to avoid and deal with common problems.

I hope you enjoy the hobby.

Mahalo,
Mark Hug




Edited by Mark Peterson - August 25 2013 at 8:22am
Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks:
www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244
Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 26 2013 at 1:46pm
Thanks to everyone for all the helpful advice. I've been doing a lot of reading and research. So in my reading it sounded like I might be able to do a biological power filter for my tank since its only a 30 gallon. I like the idea of a sump (and I'll probably do that down the road) but having to buy lights, heater, and power heads I am spreading my budget thin. Is there a good power filter anyone would recommend? Also, if anythings this is an awful idea I'm still open to hear why. But between this and live rock it sounds like I might able to get the tank up and running and add a protein skimmer and sump down the road.

Oh! Also, Any recommendations on test kits? What should I be testing for in a reef tank? Ammonia, Nitrate, PH, Salinity, Alkalinitly, Calcium. Anything else? Or is that to much to test for already? Thanks for the help! 
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