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400 Gallon Starphire Build - Mixed Reef

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love2skiutah View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote love2skiutah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 15 2013 at 7:51am
Originally posted by Mark Peterson Mark Peterson wrote:

Originally posted by love2skiutah love2skiutah wrote:

I wish I would have had some shorter bulkheads for my overflow boxes...



Aloha Aaron,

Thanks for having me over to look at your setup and to offer suggestions. Smile

The shorter bulkhead is called a UniSeal. It is simple and works well.
http://www.uniseal.co.nz/
http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/uniseal-5.html

Another advantage of the Uniseal over typical bulkheads is that the Uniseal allows some wiggle room. Typical bulkheads leak when the pipe is wiggled.


Note 1.
For matching the Return pipe in the overflow to the pipe coming through the Uniseal bulkhead, when flaming and bending the PVC pipe to make the jog, do one bend at a time.
            ____
_____ /            

Note 2.
I'm thinking a reducer 90 glued at the top, with a 3/4" S/T coupler inserted through the Uniseal into which the Lockline is threaded... will have to check what fits through the Uniseal.

Note 3.
ABS pipe and fittings are black and they are compatible with PVC primer and glue.
Black PVC pipe and fittings are available online.
Gray PVC pipe and fittings are used as electrical conduit, available at hardware stores.
Exposed white pipe and fittings can be painted gray, with PVC cement, or black, with ABS cement.

Expand your possibilities. Smile Think outside the box. Smile Find alternative solutions.

Question Question
With those Return Lines leading through the overflow wall so far below the water line, how will the siphon break when the Return Pump stops? Is one side of the "Y" Lockline going to be bent up and along the water surface?

Question Question
With the lack of adequate working space at the bottom underside of the overflow, did you get a wrench, like this Rainbird Nelson Wrench I found for $8 at Ace Hardware, for dealing with the installed bulkhead nuts?

Question Question
What is the recommended flow rate for that skimmer? I hope it won't be moving water faster than the flow rate through the Sump/Refugium. BTW, most bugs go through a skimmer without ending up in the skimate.


Mahalo again for letting me come over and offer suggestions,
Mark Hug


hmmm... Those are interesting seals.  I'll check into them a little more.  Thanks for the link. 

As far as breaking the siphon, If the return pumps are off, the tank stops pushing water, therefore the siphon stops?  I guess I'm not understanding what you are saying there.  The Loc-Line is about 1 inch below the teeth of the overflow box.  

The Skimmer has one of those DC variable pumps on it, which is the next smaller size, so I can bring the rate of the pump down if I need to.  

I got one of those tools from Home Depot a couple weeks ago.  They work great


Edited by love2skiutah - October 15 2013 at 8:02am
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Krazie4Acans View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Krazie4Acans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 15 2013 at 8:24am
Aaron,
     I think what Mark means is that when your main pump shuts off the water from your main tank will begin to siphon back into the sump through your locline. If some air isn't introduced into the line to break the siphon, it will drain your main tank down to the level where the loc-line tip finally breaks the surface and air can be sucked into the line. Most of the time that is way more water than you want to have returning to your sump and may overflow the sump onto the floor. If you break the siphon earlier then it will limit the amount of water that returns to the sump. Some people put one end of the loc-line very close to the surface so that it breaks the siphon quickly. Others drill a small hole in the loc-line right by the bulkhead so that the hole is just below the water level of the tank. That way it's not spraying water into the air or out of the tank but as soon as the water level drops a small amount the air can get through the hole and stop the siphon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote love2skiutah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 15 2013 at 8:30am
Originally posted by Krazie4Acans Krazie4Acans wrote:

Aaron,
     I think what Mark means is that when your main pump shuts off the water from your main tank will begin to siphon back into the sump through your locline. If some air isn't introduced into the line to break the siphon, it will drain your main tank down to the level where the loc-line tip finally breaks the surface and air can be sucked into the line. Most of the time that is way more water than you want to have returning to your sump and may overflow the sump onto the floor. If you break the siphon earlier then it will limit the amount of water that returns to the sump. Some people put one end of the loc-line very close to the surface so that it breaks the siphon quickly. Others drill a small hole in the loc-line right by the bulkhead so that the hole is just below the water level of the tank. That way it's not spraying water into the air or out of the tank but as soon as the water level drops a small amount the air can get through the hole and stop the siphon.

Ahh, I see what you are saying.  I've actually never thought of it going back through the returns.  I would have assumed it couldn't do it because of the returns pumps.  I just measured and it's about 1 inch from the teeth of the overflow box.  I guess I could have one of the loc-lines closer to the surface. I'll have to see where the water level is when those returns get shut off.  


Edited by love2skiutah - October 15 2013 at 8:32am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Krazie4Acans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 15 2013 at 8:42am
Don't be caught off guard. It will siphon backward even with the return pumps in the line. What I would do is get the plumbing all done and then fill it with tap water (to leak test and flow test) While it is full you can simulate a power outage by flipping the switch on the power strip for the return pumps. Then watch the level in the sump. If the siphon breaks before it gets too full then you are probably all right. If the sump starts to get too full them you can just turn the pumps back on and adjust.

Personally I like the hole in the loc-line right by the bulkhead because that position cannot really be moved and you don't have to remember about it. If you rely on the position of the loc-line ends to break the siphon then you have to re-test the power outage every time you move the loc-line. You also have to remember this after months of not having to worry about it. Not very fail safe and we are talking about a lot of water with your new setup.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Williams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 15 2013 at 9:47am
Awesome set up. Would love to see it sometime.got a fish list ur stocking it with?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 15 2013 at 7:09pm
Drilling a siphon break hole in the return line may seem like a nifty solution, but Murphy's Law rules supreme.
A snail will be sitting directly on the hole when the power goes out, causing great distress for hobbyist and spouse . Shocked Cry
Please feel free to search the annuls of this forum to verify the validity of this Murphy's Law Fact.

How can this be fixed
Question
There are a few Cardinal Rules about a pump pushing water into an elevated holding tank.  A siphon can and will start, spilling water out of its boundaries. Designing the system to prevent this disaster is one of those Cardinal Rules. This rule cannot be ignored or pushed aside. It must be on the mind of the hobbyist during all maintenance activities. I would be happy to help you avoid disaster with your system design. If these design suggestions are followed, a tap water test run is superfluous.

Aloha,
Mark Hug


Edited by Mark Peterson - October 15 2013 at 7:12pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote love2skiutah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 15 2013 at 7:12pm
Originally posted by Mark Peterson Mark Peterson wrote:

Drilling a siphon break hole in the return line may seem like a nifty solution, but Murphy's Law rules supreme.
A snail will be sitting directly on the hole when the power goes out, causing great distress for hobbyist and spouse . Shocked Cry

How can this be fixed Question
There are a few Cardinal Rules about a pump pushing water into an elevated holding tank.  A siphon can and will start, spilling water out of its boundaries. Designing the system to prevent this disaster is one of those Cardinal Rules. This rule cannot be ignored or pushed aside. It must be on the mind of the hobbyist during all maintenance activities. I would be happy to help you avoid disaster with your system design. If these design suggestions are followed, a tap water test run is superfluous.

Aloha,
Mark Hug


Those loc-lines are so close to the surface anyway, I'm going to just bring 2 of them near the water level. I thought about check valves, but I don't want to risk the valves failing, so I ruled that out as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Savage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 15 2013 at 7:42pm
I do not trust check valves either. You have the right solution having at least one of the returns close to the surface.

Edited by Mike Savage - October 15 2013 at 7:43pm


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dion Richins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 16 2013 at 8:32am
I've ran check valves for 6+ years now. Knock on wood I've never had a fail.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kody72 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 16 2013 at 9:06am
I've also ran check valves and never had one fail. Very nice build Aaron looking forward to to seeing the end product.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icenine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 16 2013 at 10:00am
Originally posted by Mark Peterson Mark Peterson wrote:

Drilling a siphon break hole in the return line may seem like a nifty solution, but Murphy's Law rules supreme.
A snail will be sitting directly on the hole when the power goes out, causing great distress for hobbyist and spouse . Shocked Cry

This is why I drill TWO siphon break holes into my lock lines. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Krazie4Acans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 16 2013 at 10:05am
+1 ^Me too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote love2skiutah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 16 2013 at 10:10am
Originally posted by icenine icenine wrote:

Originally posted by Mark Peterson Mark Peterson wrote:

Drilling a siphon break hole in the return line may seem like a nifty solution, but Murphy's Law rules supreme.
A snail will be sitting directly on the hole when the power goes out, causing great distress for hobbyist and spouse . Shocked Cry

This is why I drill TWO siphon break holes into my lock lines. 

Drill 2 holes and only have 1 snail?  LOLLOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bryce Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 16 2013 at 10:15am
+ 1 to two holes at the 1st loc-line near the surface to break the siphon, I would not trust just having the loc-line near the surface but that's just me, I also fully agree with a wet test of a power outage, I was amazed at how when I did this on my set up how wrong my initial assumptions were. From the skimmer starting when its almost fully submerged from the rise in water in the sump and totally overflowing ($12 manual reset portable GFCI plug that you have the skimmer plugged into solves that) to ATO's going off, to reactor pumps back siphoning....test your whole set up for "what could go wrong" would be my advice. Even planning out how maintenance will affect everything is a good idea, I have to pull my return pump and skimmer out for a cleaning every few months and its more of a pain in the butt than it should be had I had the opportunity to do my set up over and have thought about it more. 

Edited by Bryce - October 16 2013 at 10:20am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote love2skiutah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 16 2013 at 10:17am
Originally posted by Bryce Bryce wrote:

+ 1 to two holes at the 1st loc-line near the surface to break the siphon, I would not trust just having the loc-line near the surface but that's just me, I also fully agree with a wet test of a power outage, I was amazed at how when I did this on my set up how wrong my initial assumptions were. From the skimmer starting when its almost fully submerged from the rise in water in the sump and totally overflowing ($12 manual reset portable GFCI plug that you have the skimmer plugged into solves that) to ATO's going off, to reactor pumps back siphoning....test your whole set up for "what could go wrong" would be my advice.

Yeah, I was planning on just doing a couple holes and keeping the corner loc-lines up high as well.  I've got 8 of them. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 17 2013 at 4:24am
As there is no one way that is the all in one fail safe all of the above are great solutions . But for me in my limited experience is that anything mechanical that can go wrong will fail at some point in time. So a few simple tricks such as small anti siphon holes and a quick check of your overall system when doing water changes is a way to keep your overflow protection in the same working as your tank . But thats just my O2.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote love2skiutah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2013 at 11:54am
Updated pics - Taking the time to properly measure things out and think things through has paid off.  Elite Aquatics did an amazing job on the custom pieces I requested. 



Edited by love2skiutah - October 23 2013 at 11:55am
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That is looking clean !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Krazie4Acans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2013 at 2:22pm
Amazing how much of the rock disappeared under the sand and yet the sand is still below the molding in many places. This thing is huge! Nice work. BTW, what brand are those return pumps?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote love2skiutah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2013 at 2:27pm
Originally posted by Krazie4Acans Krazie4Acans wrote:

Amazing how much of the rock disappeared under the sand and yet the sand is still below the molding in many places. This thing is huge! Nice work. BTW, what brand are those return pumps?

Reef Octopus DC 10500 variable pumps -  Not sure if I'd recommend, I've been having issues with them on the install.  We will see when they get up and going.  
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