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Can anyone explain this?

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    Posted: November 01 2013 at 6:46pm
About two weeks ago I removed my calcium reactor and biopellet reactor from my system to clean them out. The biopellets were back online within 2 hours and were kept submersed in water from the tank with a pump to keep the water circulating and keep the pellets moving. The calcium reactor was a bit more tricky because it had become somewhat clogged up and wasn't running well at all. I gave it a vinegar bath overnight, cleaned it out really well, and threw it back on two days later after recalibrating my ph controller. I have NOT run the CO2 since putting it back in the system. I have not dosed anything except when I found alk to be at 3.9 and 5.6, which is when I dosed it over a few days to get it back up. I have also not done any water changes and have cut back on feeding since reinstalling the calcium reactor. My RO water is clean and has a TDS reading of 0 so I doubt the top off water is interfering with the levels. I'm stumped as to how my levels could have fluctuated the way they have. I'm also surprised that I haven't seen any coral death.

October 17 (calcium reactor removed this day - 5 gallon water change after testing - dosed alk)
Phosphate 0.12ppm
Nitrate 0.15ppm
Ph 7.9
Calcium 650ppm
Alkalinity 3.9dKH
Magnesium 1830ppm
Specific Gravity 1.027
Temperature 79F

October 24 (calcium reactor reinstalled the day before- 5 gallon water change done the day before - dosed alk)
Phosphate 0.05ppm
Nitrate 0.2ppm
Ph 7.9
Calcium 620ppm
Alkalinity 5.6dKH
Magnesium 1680ppm
Specific Gravity 1.027
Temperature 80F

October 25
Phosphate 0.08ppm
Nitrate 0.18ppm
Ph 7.9
Calcium 570ppm
Alkalinity 9.4dKH
Magnesium 1550ppm
Specific Gravity 1.027
Temperature 80F

October 28
Phosphate 0.097ppm
Nitrate 1.5ppm
Ph 7.8
Calcium 530ppm
Alkalinity 8.4dKH
Magnesium 1300ppm
Specific Gravity 1.027
Temperature 80F

October 30
Phosphate 0.09ppm
Nitrate 0.25ppm
Ph 7.8
Calcium 520ppm
Alkalinity 7.1dKH
Magnesium 1450ppm
Specific Gravity 1.026
Temperature 80F

November 1 (today)
Phosphate 0.2ppm
Nitrate 0.3ppm
Ph 7.7
Calcium 650ppm
Alkalinity 0dKH
Magnesium 1700ppm
Specific Gravity 1.026
Temperature 79F


I've been testing using the following test kits and have never had problems with them being inaccurate and none of them are very old.
Phosphate - Hanna Checker (ultra low-range)
Nitrate - Red Sea
Calcium, Magnesium, Alkalinity - Red Sea & Salifert (I've been testing all three with both to ensure accuracy)
Ph - Milwaukee MC122 Ph Controller (recently calibrated)
Specific Gravity - Refractometer (don't remember the brand, but recently checked calibration)
Temperature is checked with the screen on my chiller and a stick-on thermometer on the side of the tank

Anyone have any ideas as to why this might have happened? Oh and I'm doing a 30% water change tonight and probably another one tomorrow.


Edited by Ann_A - November 01 2013 at 6:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote builderofdreams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2013 at 7:55pm
A couple of questions.
1-How does your corals look and act? Espicially your sticks?
2-what salt are you using?
From what i see your levels drop when you change water.
personally i would have a 2nd party test your water and compare the two. Not saying you dont know what your doing by any means.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ann_A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2013 at 8:13pm
Corals look fine. Polyps extend great, colors are bright, and growth hasn't really changed any. Although growth hasn't been great lately because I had a bad calcium drop a few weeks ago and high phosphates for a few days. The corals pretty much stopped growing throughout that but had started growing again over the last little while. Doesn't look like they've stopped or slowed back down any. All my acros are happy as can be. Colors are very vibrant, they all extend polyps, and they're growing at their regular rates. That's what really surprised me; I'd have expected them to stop growing or even start to die off with all of the rapid fluctuations.

I use instant ocean reef crystals. I've tested the batch and haven't had anything show up bad. The only levels overseen drop after a water change are the calcium and magnesium. They were high to begin with so the water changes were actually intended to help drop them.

I've used multiple test kits to test everything except salinity and temperature. I have three nitrate test kits that I've used (mainly use the Red Sea though), two phosphate kits (the checker and a seachem), two ph testers (api and the controller), and two kits for calcium, alkalinity, and magnesium (salifert and red sea). I'm pretty sure my readings are accurate because none of the tests have had conflicting results. If I get odd levels on the new batch of saltwater (not a new batch of salt that hasn't been tested) I'll go have everything tested at a LFS tomorrow.

Edited by Ann_A - November 01 2013 at 8:16pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phys Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2013 at 1:07am
0 dKh?????? Is that a typo? If not, then there is something wrong with your test kits. 0 dKh seems impossible to me in any manner unless you purposefully removed it. Check your testing vials and kits for something that may have got into them and contaminated them. That seems to be the most logical thing here. I would buy a new kit and test it with that and keep it completely separate from any other potential contaminates.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ann_A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2013 at 9:25am
I was thinking the same thing but I rinse all vials with RO after testing so they're clean for the next time. Plus I tested it twice with the salifert and twice with the red sea. The red sea kit is only two weeks old.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phys Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2013 at 12:55pm
Have you accidentally mixed the titration chemicals or used lids on the wrong bottles? Just using the same lids may leave enough residue from another test kit to throw things off.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ann_A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2013 at 12:56pm
I rinse all lids and vials as well as syringes. Plus I've labeled them all so each is used for only one test.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phys Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2013 at 1:03pm
Hmmmmm... I still think I has to be something with your test kits. I can't see any possible way to have such low dKh and still have any life in your tank. Your pH would be so acidic you corals would have had skeletons dissolving.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ann_A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2013 at 1:22pm
I was thinking the same thing but I don't see anything wrong with the kits. And I doubt it would be wrong with BOTH of them which have never had problems before.

Anyways as of this morning (15 hours after the water change) my levels are...

Phosphate 0.077ppm
Nitrate 0.15ppm
Ph 7.7
Calcium 600ppm
Alkalinity 8.7dKH
Magnesium 1300ppm
Specific Gravity 1.025

I'm a little concerned about the low ph, but I can't seem to raise it. I'm not running CO2 and there's plenty of surface movement. Plus I'm running a skimmer so I see no reason for it to be so low. I also don't like calcium so high but last time I tested my salt mix, the new water tested at 550ppm. That was from the same batch that I used for this water change.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aquatic Evolution Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2013 at 1:45pm
What time of day did you test it? Your ph will fluctuate throughout the day, make sure you test it at the same time of day. Best time is just as your lights go off, it will be at its highest.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ann_A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2013 at 3:02pm
That's pretty much when I test ph; pretty close to the time when my whites start to ramp down. It's consistently at 7.7 to 7.8 with 7.9 being a somewhat rare maximum.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phys Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2013 at 8:52pm
One thing I noticed just now is when your mag and calcium are really high, you seem to read very low alk. try a test on some test water where you have a few different levels of mag and calc and see what the alk is between them.

Another thought, are you using a dosing system or doing it by hand? How long after you dose are you testing?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2013 at 7:15am
Aloha Ann,

I believe you are smart to notice that coral are looking good.
May we see a pic of the tank?
Also the Refugium?
How much sunlight reaches this tank? Is there a large window nearby? What direction does the window face?
I'm also curious about the sand in the Display and Refugium, what is it, how deep and may we see a pic? I'm just wondering about the tanks natural buffering capacity.

The zero dKH on 11/1 is a strange anomaly. I'd throw out that reading. The thing I see with that history is the expected teeter-totter effect of dKH and Ca. Decreasing Ca was expected as Alk rose. Mg was also falling as Alk rose. None of these things look out of the ordinary. It appears that in this tank, Alk is the level to watch and to maintain stable between 8-10 dKH.

The pH reading is a little surprising. We would naturally expect it higher, but if coral are doing well and fish are happy then we might just consider that this is the tanks normal pH reading. How about checking it around 4 PM? I'm thinking it might be slightly higher in the afternoon. Also would you mind checking pH at 6 AM? Knowing how low it goes could be useful.

One more thing - Are the pH readings taken from the controller or are they actual liquid tests? I'm wondering if pH calibration may be slightly in error. Where is the probe located?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ann_A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2013 at 9:45am
I'll get a pic of the tank up this afternoon.

I don't have a refugium because it's an RSM 250.

This is in my front room which has three west facing windows. The tank gets about 4 hours of sunlight in the summer and around 2 hours in winter.

The sand is CaribSea Arag-Alive Special Grade reef sand. There's somewhere around 70lbs in there now. It's about 1.5"-2" deep if smoothed out. Thanks to an MP40 the sand tends to shift to one side.

The alk has always been stable in the past even without a calcium reactor. It had a consistent trend of decreasing or increasing rather than an up-and-down unstable pattern. Calcium and magnesium aren't really a concern, I just don't like my calcium to be above 475. I prefer to keep it at 450.

I really don't believe the 0 was correct, but as I said early, I tested it 4 times with 2 different kits that have never had problems in the past. When I have the calcium reactor running I always tune it to maintain alkalinity before calcium. It tends to keep everything (calcium, alkalinity, magnesium, ph) more stable in my tank if I set it this way to begin with.

Normally I wouldn't worry about a low ph reading if everything was doing well and I'd not seen any adverse effects, but I don't want to turn the co2 back on in my calcium reactor if the tank ph is already low. I'm somewhat worried it would bring my ph even lower in the display. I've always had a hard time keeping the ph above 8.1. I've checked it in the mornings, afternoons, and evening over the last little while and it's consistently between 7.7 and 7.8 every time I check it.

Ph is measured with the ph meter which was calibrated a week ago. The probe is in a port on the top of my calcium reactor. I do not have the co2 turned on and there is not a valve restricting flow to or from the reactor right now. I'm pretty sure the ph in the reactor is the same as in the tank because I've also used an API liquid test which matches the probe in the reactor when testing water from the display.

Edited by Ann_A - November 03 2013 at 1:56pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ann_A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2013 at 1:58pm
Just took this 5 minutes ago. Sorry about the dirty glass and canopy/stand. I've been doing a bit of work on cleaning the inside of the glass and haven't gotten to the outside yet.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ann_A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2013 at 11:45am
All of my levels are stable now. My only concern is that my ph is now sitting at 7.5 all day every day. At 5:30 this morning it was 7.5 with the ph controller and the liquid test kit. Last night at 7:30 it was 7.5 with both the controller and liquid test kit. I've tried throwing an airstone in the tank for a day and a half and that didn't do anything. I've left the hood open with the airstone in the tank, opened the skimmer valve all the way (removed the collection cup so it wouldn't over skim) and that didn't help. My best guess is that the CO2 levels in my house are high enough to keep the tank's ph down. Anyone else think this is a possibility? I tested the theory by taking a cup of tank water and leaving an airstone in it overnight and checked the ph. It didn't change. And if this is the case how can I go about fixing it without opening doors and windows all of the time or running fans all over the house? Should I add a CO2 scrubber to the skimmer's air intake?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2013 at 3:51pm
Extend the skimmer airline out through the corner of a window or some other fresh air source.
This is a solution that has worked for many tanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ann_A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2013 at 4:20pm
I'd have to run it about 15ft even if I ran it straight across the room... that's really not an option.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2013 at 11:25am
Yes, I understand, but I would try it for a couple days to see how much it raised pH. If that did the trick, I would then search out a way to accomplish it. For example, How far away is the home furnace? Furnaces have an outside cold air duct for safety purposes. Access to that could be through the basement if that is where the furnace is located. I should think that a little larger tubing running as much as 25 feet would be doable.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ann_A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2013 at 11:44am
The furnace is on the other side of the house in the basement. I don't think my parents would go for running tubing all over the house either.

Anyways, I took another cup of tank water and put an airstone in it, but this time the air pump and cup were set outside. Ph came up to 8.3 so I think the problem is an accumulation of carbon dioxide in the house.
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