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A New Perspective

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Adam Blundell View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adam Blundell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: A New Perspective
    Posted: July 02 2003 at 10:15pm

Okay here comes some controversy.  It has been brought to my attention that a few people do not feel comfortable expressing their views on this forum for fear of being attacked.  This isn't directed towards anyone or towards any topic.  The concern is that poor advice may be given, or that people are giving advice based on what they've hear or read, without really questioning how true it is.  I will use an example here, because I know how some of you feel.  After all, there are things I've thought of typing and then decided not to in an effort to avoid debates.  As club president I see it as my role to help answer questions, but not create posts of personal opinion (when possible).  One example that members expressed concerns with is oolitic sand.....

For all you who promote utah oolitic sand, and think it is wonderful, you may be completly correct.  However, consider the fact that you may be wrong.  It has been defiantly argued that oolitic sand with its smaller particle size, has more surface area, and therefore more bacteria to help with filtration.  It is possible that this is completly wrong.  Current research has shown that the bacteria load in the substrate water is roughly 1000 times that of the open, REGARDLESS of particle size.  What does make a difference is the amount of water in the substrate.  Therefore, studies show that there is more bacteria available in the larger types of substrate, because there is more water in the substrate area!!!!  This is the reason for pourous rock, and for artificial media which was created to have many water pockets in the substrate.  So by using oolitic sand, you would need MORE not less of it (in terms of inches deep) to have the same amount of water in your substrate area. 

So before anyone goes around promoting ideas, please make sure you understand why you are promoting them.  We all understand this forum is intended to share ideas and opinions, but what is troublesome is when members feel hesitant to share what they feel. 

Just something to keep in mind....

Adam 

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Marcus View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marcus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 02 2003 at 10:46pm

Thank you very much Adam for expressing that and I am not talking about your view on the sand.  I am, however, talking about your topic which I believe has to do with people telling other that their opinion is wrong.  Opinions cannot be wrong, only facts can wrong.  I try my very best to just give my point of view.  I know that sometimes I come across rather harsh and for this I apologize.  If any of you have not noticed, I have not been posting very much anymore.  One reason is that I have been looking for a job after leaving The Pet Factory.  But the main reason is that I think this board has become very opinionated, and not very open to new ideas.  I have probably been one of the biggest reasons that it has become like this.  I am going to tone it down.  I have been PM'ing people with my views just so that I do not start debates about things that do not need to be debated.  I try to do my best to say that these are just my opinions and not the only way.  I just want to give others another side or another way to do things.  There are so many ways to enjoy this hobby and I just want to share other ways.  I do apoligize if I have offended anyone by being too "pushy" or confrontational.  I will continue to help others and share my opinions when asked but I am going to tone down my amount of posting.

Adam, as for your view on the substrate in general, I would to hear some details about it.  It probably should not be on this thread though.

Just for the record, I left The Pet Factory on my own accord for personal reasons.  I have nothing but good things to say about Jake and his company as I will continue to shop there and I hope others will too.

Marcus

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rfoote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2003 at 5:25am

Adam - I'm not trying to start a controversy out of this topic, but I've got to say I actually kind of disagree.  I think people have been fairly honest when making posts in stating In My Opinion or From my Experience. 

Maybe its my own inexperience, but to be honest I think the one thing I've learned that there is actually really very little factual evidence involved in this hobby.  I've heard of people doing things completely different ways and it works just fine for them.

To be honest I think sometimes people are too easily offended.  If you don't want to hear peoples opinions, then don't ask has always been my motto.  If you ask, no matter what you are going to hear something that you don't like.  You've got to be willing to accept that and maybe even consider it as truth. 

Wow, I sound like I'm preaching or something.  I really don't mean to, but this is kind of a sour topic on my part.  I think posty away!  I guess I kind of like a good debate!  That really is the idea behind a good forum, isn't it?  I never saw any disclaimer stating that what you post must be based on years of research and only based upon those true findings.  If thats the case I guarantee you, that we will have far fewer postings and involvement than we do now.

I think sometimes people don't realize that it isn't them being attacked personally, rather they disagree with their point of view.  I also, think sometimes people are just out looking for excuses to not be involved.

Well, I could go on and on, but this is just my .02 worth.  As well as just my opinion.

POST AWAY!!!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ewaldsreef Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2003 at 6:12am
 Ok I will throw in my opion. I think there is a differance between a debate and an argument. I have learned alot from people debating on forums. I think rfoote makes a good point people sometimes take things a little to serious. NO ONE should feel like they cant post because it may start a debate that includes you Marcus. the reasons not to post would be things like personal atacks. You could take 2 people in the hobbie for 20 years they may have completey differant setups and both be sucessful. That is one thing I have learned there are infinet ways to do things so when someone gives advise just try and learn from it. You dont have to take it.
Contact me for professional aquarium maintenance and localy grown coral frags. [URL=http://www.aquatitranquility.com][/URL]

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John Fletcher View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Fletcher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2003 at 8:26am

Now it is my turn.  IMO, this is a question and answer, give ideas, to show how proud I am, and many other forms of expression, forum isn't it?  If we all put on our blinders and did it the same old way as everyone else then there would be no need for this form.  If I give an answer to a question and it is way off base, don't you think it would be the right of the form to correct me.  If it be in the form of an attack, I feel the admin. should step in and let them know they need to tone it down.  I don't think we have someone that can monitor 24/7, but it is an idea.  That is what RC does and it seams to work.

In going back through the forms, I have found that all of the information is just advise, you can take it or leave it.  There might have been some strong advise, but we still have the right to take it or leave it.  There is, IMO, no one that has the correct way of doing things, just their way.

I hope this has helped.  I don't want people to leave this forum, because they thought their thought or idea was correct and then had it corrected by someone else.  That is what this forum is for.

John Fletcher
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Jake Pehrson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jake Pehrson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2003 at 8:51am

I agree with the people above.   The forum is great.  Although it can (and has) get out of hand sometimes, for the most part I think everybody is learning and growing from the debates on the message board.

 

Adam,

 

I would like to know the studies that are claiming that ‚Äúthere is more bacteria available in the larger types of substrate, because there is more water in the substrate area‚ÄĚ.  This goes against everything I have read and would like to look into this more. 

Jake Pehrson

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:)
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Adam Blundell View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adam Blundell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2003 at 8:54am

Great replies, thank you.

Adam

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Mark Peterson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2003 at 8:56am

The discussions on this forum are 99% great in my opinion, and yet I have often offended AND taken offense with the words appearing here. Adam's chosen example of Oolitic sand is an excellent case in point.

A BIG THANK YOU to all forum members that are willing to question and to offer differing perspectives. There are certainly risks involved when offering personal opinion. Even disclosing "facts" can sometimes be risky, especially when those facts end up being replaced by new facts!

There are so many ways to make a marine aquarium work. Shucks, I should know that as well as anyone.

To those who have hesitated offering their opinion for whatever reason, I want to add my voice, offering my personal apology for ever giving reason for that feeling. Please be encouraged to join in and give thanks to the WMAS for providing this marvelous forum.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfinch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2003 at 11:33am

I'd like to make a suggestion.  Perhaps when we come to a "hot button" topic such as the GSL oolitic sand we make it out of bounds to disscuss if it's "good or bad" on the board.  When a new member joins the list, an email could be sent to him stating that such and such topics are not discussed on the list and refer them to a (new) section of the WMAS web site.  In the new web page section there could be a pro and con prewritten discussion regarding it's use.  Anyone wanting to add comments to the section can.  Say Mark writes something up on why he feels it's ok and Marcus writes up something on why it's not ok (and others too).  Then we're done with it.  No more message board disscusions.  I think if we don't have something like this, every newbie on the board is going to ask "can I use GSL oolitic sand in my tank" and all the old wounds will be reopened or someone won't give their opinion because they don't want to be shouted down by the other side again.  We can just refer the person asking that question to the prewritten report.

I envision the document being somewhat dynamic.  As opinions/experience changes it too should change.  It might benefit from a moderator.

This would not excude other topics concerning GSL oolitic sand from disscussion on the message board, such as "how deep a bed?", "what color is it?", "is there more bacteria in an oolitic bed or a coarse bed ?", ect...

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Brad A. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brad A. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2003 at 1:23pm

Suggestion:  Make an "Advanced Aquarist" forum.  Add a disclaimer that "The pit maybe hot so don't enter if you can't take the heat" (or whatever sounds better but you get the point).

And perhaps a "New to the hobby" fourm (is there one now?)  No one should ever feel attacked in a "New to the Hobby" forum

I think the document idea above is okay but, it will last about 2 weeks before people just don't update it.

Debates are good and necessary for furthering the hobby.   

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John Fletcher View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Fletcher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2003 at 2:51pm

I agree with Brad A. "Debates are good and necessary for furthering the hobby.  I also agree with the "Advanced Aquarist" forum and "New to the hobby" fourm.  These are two areas I think we should think about.

 

John Fletcher
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ryan Willden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2003 at 6:24pm

I have a few things I'd like to add to this, as I have been involved in the Oolitic controversy, as well as some others (Home depot Power compacts, etc, etc...)

I think forums like this are great. On a lighter note, I think they should be seperated into two groups. One for people with a "dungload" of money to spend on the hobby, and one for cheapskates like me. When I express views about GSL Oolitic sand, or other inexpensive ways to start and maintain a reef tank, it is because I know there are people out there like I once was that want to get a foot in the door in the hobby. Too many people, when first interested in the hobby, can be overwhelmed and discouraged by the high price of Hardware alone in our LFS'. I was one of these people. I have learned some good and bad lessons "experimenting" with different, usually less expensive techniques. However, isn't this what a "hobby" is all about?

The dictionary states the following definition of the word hobby: An activity or interest pursued outside one's regular occupation and engaged in primarily for pleasure. It doesn't say one thing about running off to "Joe's Reef Store" and buying the "Complete reef kit" priced at $5000.00 delivered and installed.

It's about doing, and trying new things. I have to say that I have spent way more in this hobby than my wife would like to know about. But if I hadn't experimented to some extent or another, I wouldn't have enjoyed it nearly enough, nor would I be involved in this hobby today. To me, finding new ways of doing things is what encompass hobbies like this. If bnot for Columbus thinking the world was round, most of us wouldn't be in such a great country... Incidentally, the dictionary also defines forums as: A public meeting place for open discussion. That means there are no limits about what we should and shouldn't discuss, as long as it's within the realms of this hobby. That's the great thing about the internet. If you don't like what's being expressed on one forum, you can always find one where someone shares your views.

I will say that we should not put down others opinions, and that any such comments from others will be taken "with a grain of salt" so to speak...

Now that my editorial is over, I just want to say thanks to the people that make "forums" like this available to us.

Happy posting!

Ryan

 

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Marcus View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marcus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2003 at 11:43pm

Ditto to what Ryan said.  There is no such thing as a stupid question, nor is there a such thing as a stupid answer.  Someone may answer something that no one else agrees with but that is still his/her opinion.

It is too bad that we have to post about things like this and not just post about our tanks.

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