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Herbie Style? BeanAnimal?

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Crazy Tarzan View Drop Down
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    Posted: February 26 2014 at 7:19am
Ideas please!

So, I'm tired of hearing water flow down my drain pipes.  No it's not loud, nor horribly distracting, I just want it silent.  I figure I should fix it now, before I put any livestock in.

I've been looking at the Herbie style, and BeanAnimal style drain setups and stewing on how to do them.  I do plan on running the tubing to just above the water line to set up the emergency flush/full suction failsafe.

Problem:  My tank is drilled with two 1" bulkheads with super nano overflows from glass holes, centered in the openings on each side.  I also have a 3/4" drilled return centered on the tank.

I could trim one of the boxes down by 1/4"-3/16" to run a herbie style, having one box flow silent, and the other trickle--but not sure if this will work well when power goes out.

I've included pics of the overflows, and one of the back showing current plumbing arrangements--which can be changed, none of the drains are cemented, and I can easily remove/redo the return.




Was that in there yesterday? Casper--WY windier than ?

Down to a 20, soon to double or nothing
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LaRue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2014 at 8:04am
Could you fit an elbow inside one of the overflow boxes if so you could put an elbow on with a piece of pipe that just barely sits above your water level and that could be your emergency drain.
Otherwise if you can't the only way I can see to make it work would be to lower one of the boxes by either removing and resealing it back on or sanding it down.
If you end up lowering it because you can't get the elbow in the over follow box can your sump handle the extra water volume when the power shuts off
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Krazie4Acans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2014 at 8:22am
Unfortunately, both of those drain styles require that all the drains be within the same overflow box. If they aren't then they work independently instead of together. Thus you will have the emergency drain side completely full to the level of the drain at all times. You really don't want much water going down that pipe unless the main drain isn't keeping up. That is not what would happen with them separate.

I almost tried the same thing on a corner drilled tank but luckily tested it while I was leak testing the tank and found the problem. Krazie
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crazy Tarzan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2014 at 8:56am
I suppose I could go with a coast to coast overflow, and re-drill the center hole to accept a 1" bulkhead--which would then allow me to run a BeanAnimal style.  Though where I put/route the return(s) would then need addressed.
Was that in there yesterday? Casper--WY windier than ?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Krazie4Acans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2014 at 9:34am
Coast to Coast would work. You could either go over the top for your returns or drill a couple more holes for the returns and use a two bulkheads (one in the tank glass and one in the overflow) with a piece of PVC between them to get your returns into the tank.

You could also drill two new holes and make the coast to coast not go from end to end on the back. That would leave the two outer holes that are already there for the returns and the center return and the two new holes would be in the overflow.

If you're really looking for a silent setup then the overflow front should be on a slant instead of straight up and down so that the water doesn't just drop straight into the overflow box, but runs down a slope and into it.

Hope that helps. Krazie
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crazy Tarzan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2014 at 10:03am
Krazie--thanks for the thoughts.

I wasn't planning on running the coast to coast across the whole back, but rather from the outer edges of the current boxes.  However, I like the in-between idea more.  Then I can simply re-drill the center hole, and add 2 more evenly spaced 1" (or should I push to 1.5"?) holes and bulkheads.  Its easy to drop size when putting returns in with the 1" bulkheads.

Now to go home and figure up what size of overflow I need to have made, and where I'm going to be drilling holes at.  and buy some more pvc. . .
Was that in there yesterday? Casper--WY windier than ?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Krazie4Acans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2014 at 11:14am
The more space you can have between the holes the better for strength. If you can keep a 2" spacing around each hole (to the next bulkhead, or edge of glass, etc..) I would.

Other than that I think you got the right idea. Krazie
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crazy Tarzan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2014 at 11:56am
Of course I could do an external overflow box, and continue using the current boxes to flow into it, then just kink my return like crazy to keep using it. . .

Nah, more work.

And from the reading I've done, it looks like I can keep it at all 1" thin wall plumbing if I want, the 1.5 is simply for increased capacity.  Maybe I'll go to 1.25" plumbing.  Finding the fittings and a gate valve is going to be the hard part.


Edited by Crazy Tarzan - February 26 2014 at 12:09pm
Was that in there yesterday? Casper--WY windier than ?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Krazie4Acans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2014 at 12:18pm
1.25" is not a standard size. Two 1" drains should be more than enough for a 65g unless you are moving more than 2400gph through your sump and then you would want to go to 1.5".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ahanix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2014 at 12:29pm
Get rid of your 90 degree elbows at the bottom and get two 45's in place. Also if place T' with caps over the tops, you may solve your problem entirely. Not saying it is guaranteed to work, but it's certainly cheaper and less time consuming than drilling more holes in your tank, and allows you to keep everything pretty much the same.

Also, you could consider gate valves if you aren't getting 100% of your flow through your overflow right now anyways, which could also be causing the rushing water noise you have. I'm no expert, I just remember some of these things helped a bit when I drilled out the back of my tank instead of using a factory style overflow that is drilled out the bottom.

Crappy mspaint job for reference, someone feel free to correct me if I am wrong



Edited by Ahanix - February 26 2014 at 3:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crazy Tarzan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2014 at 1:22pm
I can swap to 45* no issue, and move to the t's, however the most noise is in the straight pipes dropping down the back, and I get lots of bubbles in the sump/fuge at the moment.  And as krazy mentioned my overflows are separate form each other which could cause me grief.  I will order a gate valve though, since I dislike how finicky ball valves can be.

The biggest issue is making sure I have enough fail safe built in to not overflow the tank once I silence the drains--2.5 gal in the sump area (not fuge), and whatever my top off ends up being can make a very large puddle on a nice wood floor--which will then swell and cause me all kinds of grief.

Putting two more holes in my tank doesn't bother me a bit and I already have the hole saw to do so, along with a pattern, though I might end up draining it into tuppers and moving it out from the wall again.
Was that in there yesterday? Casper--WY windier than ?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ahanix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2014 at 3:38pm
The other thing you could potentially consider is running Spa flex instead of rigid pvc, and then black rubber hose for the return. That usually knocks a lot of vibration out of the overflow, but then you have the issue of making it look nice, keeping the pipes secure and running exactly where you want to.... essentially you will need to get creative.

Or, which may be worse news to you and not an option, you could sell the glass tank on KSL and look for another 65 with a megaflow overflow (drilled out the bottom) - They are dead silent, but probably out of the picture.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crazy Tarzan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2014 at 6:06pm
The bottom on mine is tempered, and even says do not drill. I somehow doubt that anyone will pick it up if I put it on ksl-I'm in wy.

And if I get a new tank, it's going to be a 5.5' x 2.5' x 2' one. No more small stuff! ;)

Edited by Crazy Tarzan - February 27 2014 at 7:25am
Was that in there yesterday? Casper--WY windier than ?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2014 at 6:24pm
Hold on, Nate.
Many of the ideas already mentioned could reduce the noise but not quiet it altogether. I agree that a drain valve can lead to trouble, but I have solutions for preventing mishaps for that too.

Okay, if you follow what I suggest here and after tweaking it isn't practically silent, then I'll eat my hat. I am currently using and have used this method on many of my own silent drain tanks.

First, like Ahanix showed, on the two 1" drains, replace the Street L's for T's (Slip-Thread-Slip)
2- On the upper end of the T's, position the cap 3-4" above the T with a length of rigid 1" PVC.
3- Drill a 1/8" hole in the cap and fit it snug without glue so it can be enlarged or modified later.
4- On the lower end of the T's, slip in 4-5 foot lengths of 1" white plastic RV Bilge Hose (click for picture) with some Aquarium safe Silicone sealant wiped around the hose joint before pressing firmly into the T fitting
5- Lead the two bilge hose drains down through the hole in the stand (the hole may need enlarging/lengthening to avoid kinking the hose) so they go underwater into the Floss bag. Try to make them curl around a little in the bag or even try a full loop higher up(inside or outside the stand) before they enter the floss bag, but be sure the outlet ends are well submerged.

That's the silent plumbing. If it makes noise at the cap try enlarging the hole just a small fraction at a time. The cap fits snug enough without gluing or wrap a couple layers of Teflon plumbers tape around the pipe to ease cap installation and removal.

Have fun and enjoy the silence. Call if you have any questions.

Aloha,
Mark Hug
808-345-1049



Edited by Mark Peterson - February 26 2014 at 6:50pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crazy Tarzan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2014 at 11:03pm
Mark-I'll do it after work tomorrow.  Saw that bilge tubing at ACE the other day.  That way the silicone has a chance to dry before the skimmer pump and replacement impeller for return pump show up.  And my 14" filter socks (ordered 8" and realized they were too short when I took them out of the box).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2014 at 7:05am
Regarding the overflow boxes, I don't know if Glass Holes tells you or maybe you already know this but toothless overflows are notorious for sending fish down the drain. Clown

This may or may not be a problem, depending on how much trouble it is to retrieve fish from the floss bag. (I typically don't use floss bags, but that's another topic) Sometimes fish die after being tossed around by heavy frothy flow in a floss bag, so the way to prevent that is to use 1/4" - 1/2" mesh screen around the inside, extending up about an inch above the top edge but just below the rim of the aquarium. Why below the rim? If the screen were to get totally clogged, water can still go over the top and down the drain before it overflows the aquarium. (A flat piece laying across the top clogs too easily).Crease the screen material so that it fits perfectly square against the 3 interior sides of the box like this [  (this is a top view)
The screen, if it is long enough to sit on the bottom of the box, can also help reduce noise by interrupting the sometimes cascading waterfall inside the box. (This is an easy answer to the point in a post above about making the box with sloping walls.)

Aloha,
Mark Hug

P.S.
Needlepoint plastic canvas makes a nice screen but is improved upon when symmetrical sections are snipped out to make larger openings.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crazy Tarzan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2014 at 7:30am
Mark, the boxes are designed somewhat different than normal--they have two interior pieces that cover all but a small space at the bottom of the box, and they also have a lid for the actual drain area.  I'll try and find a pic of them, but this might help illustrate? 

|--|  Top down, the two small pieces inside are set 1/2 down, and have a cover for them
|  |  The center has the drain, which normally is only accessible from underneath the 2 interior pieces
|--|

BUT I was planning on doing mesh screens somehow anyways.  Just being cautious and trying to keep ANY critters from going down the drains.


Edited by Crazy Tarzan - February 27 2014 at 7:32am
Was that in there yesterday? Casper--WY windier than ?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crazy Tarzan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2014 at 7:15am
Mark--any specific reason you say 1" bilge tubing?  they didn't have enough 1" so I ended up with 1.25" (which fits 1" schedule 40 really well).

Also, what effect do the caps and their height have?  I started with a 1/16" hole, and have no cap sound at all, and covering the hole does not produce full suction either.  However, it was all 'test' fit last night with no glue, I'll glue today after I test running just one drain to make sure I don't flood the house.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crazy Tarzan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2014 at 7:16am
Forgot to mention--reduced the sound of the water by about 1/2-2/3 of what it was, which makes it much better.  In fact the little noise my overflow boxes made is now louder than the drains, and having the curl/circle in the tubing helps with the overflows starting up faster.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2014 at 6:20am
Ahh, the sound of success.
Yeah that's the stuff. 1.25" bilge hose. Thanks for the correction.
On a Durso device, the cap height(air space), cap hole size and flow rate appear to be interrelated in achieving the quietest operation.
The corrugation slows the flow and the loop creates an inside pool which seems to reduce the air draw down the pipe. The need for the Durso device is reduced though it still contributes to silent operation.

Some tinkering inside the overflow boxes may help quiet the waterfall into them. Have fun.

Aloha,
Mark Hug
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