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beege29 
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 Topic: led questions
Posted: November 09 2014 at 9:09am |
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What would be a good led system to use for a 45 gal tank? Mid range price. Should I do one good size fixture or 2 smaller ones. Never had led's before and the current t5 fixture I have needs new bulbs and is putting off too much heat, even with a fan blowing across them. If I use 1 fixture, will it radiate across the entire tank or just the middle part? Thanks...and does anybody have a good full spectrum one for a decent $. Thanks
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90 gallon mixed reef
30 gallon sump
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Adam Blundell
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Posted: November 09 2014 at 9:15am |
What's the footprint of a 45?
Adam
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beege29
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Posted: November 09 2014 at 9:19am |
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Adam, its 36" wide 14" deep 21" tall
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90 gallon mixed reef
30 gallon sump
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: November 09 2014 at 8:56pm |
The fan must blow across the water, not at the lights. The method is evaporation cooling, like a swamp cooler. It works extremely well. The angle of the fan and the speed of the air blowing across the water determine the degree of cooling. It can cool the water as much as 15 degrees when properly positioned. The reason blowing air at the light fixture doesn't help much is because infrared radiation (heat coming from the t5's and the light fixture) is relatively unaffected by air movement.
The other thing we usually look at here is if the heater is being used, what temperature is it set at  If the base temperature is above 75, a slight change in the present setting could eliminate the need for a fan. Set the heater at 73-75. If the temp rises 5 degrees over the course of the day, the coral will still be okay because it didn't get too hot, like over 81 degrees. Coral, inverts and fish can live just fine at 70-80 each day and even 65 degrees is not too cold in the short term.
I mean no disrespect, but since this post is in the general discussion section, I hope you don't mind if I comment. There is nothing "full spectrum" about LED's. The physics of LED's means that each LED puts out one or just a few narrow bands of the sunlight spectrum. The combination of those narrow bands fools our eyes making it look to us like good color emissions. It doesn't fool coral though. Only the expensive LED fixtures, where there is a combination of 5 or more LED color types actually satisfy the corals need for proper light energy.
Until those expensive (~$800) LED fixtures come down to half that price, I'll be using T5's and PC's on MarksReef Coral Farm. I believe we will see that in 3-5 years.  My opinion might change when I have a chance to talk with Sanjay Joshi at the MWRF, but I'll be surprised if he doesn't agree.
Aloha 
Edited by Mark Peterson - November 09 2014 at 8:58pm
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Adam Blundell
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Posted: November 09 2014 at 10:44pm |
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Adam Blundell
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Posted: November 09 2014 at 10:45pm |
Buy two of these, they'll be fantastic. http://www.ebay.com/itm/MR-120-LED-Aquarium-Light-Marine-Coral-Reef-55x-3W-SPS-Dimmable-Full-Spectrum-/111477963308?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19f49aba2c
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ReefdUp
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Posted: November 10 2014 at 1:42am |
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Mark - your statement that there are no full spectrum leds is incorrect. There are full spectrum leds that have a spectrum very similar to metal halides. That's what I used in my build, and like metal halides, I supplemented them with blues.
When choosing LEDs, the initial cost seems high, but you're forgetting about the lack of maintenance and saved power. Mine paid for themselves in about a year. No bulb changes and LEDs are more efficient and have a higher efficacy. A single 6-bulb T5 fixture will run you about $120 every 10 months, and an LED fixture for that size tank isn't much more than that now.
My build cost me about $1k because of the depth of my tank...and all the controllability I wanted.
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ReefdUp
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Posted: November 10 2014 at 1:49am |
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And just to clarify...
You have to run a fan blowing across LEDs or they'll burn up. I assume that Mark, you were talking about the extra fan blowing at the current fixture. In that case, it's true. You need the fan blowing across the water.
Fan blowing across lighting = better light performance
Fan blowing across water = cooler temps
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Reefboy4life
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Posted: November 10 2014 at 6:48am |
 ReefdUp wrote:
And just to clarify...
You have to run a fan blowing across LEDs or they'll burn up. I assume that Mark, you were talking about the extra fan blowing at the current fixture. In that case, it's true. You need the fan blowing across the water.
Fan blowing across lighting = better light performance
Fan blowing across water = cooler temps |
Should you have a fan blowing across leds if the fixture is not hot to the touch?
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90 gallon mixed reef
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Fatman
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Posted: November 10 2014 at 7:51am |
Actually you should have a fan running on the LED fixture whenever it comes on. The exception is those with a controller that reads the temperature of the fixture and turns on the fan when the fixture reaches a set point. Few people have that feature. Even if the fixture is not too hot to touch, the LEDs could be hot and the heat dissipate across the rest of the fixture. The point to test the heat is not the heat sink fins we can touch, it's right at the base of the led on the heat sink base where we mount the LED. My fans come on when the LEDs turn on and I placed a temp sensor over the white one in the center so I can monitor if from the web. 
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: November 10 2014 at 12:51pm |
"A single 6-bulb T5 fixture will run you about $120 every 10 months" Well, I've been fortunate to find bargains here and elsewhere, plus, the daily photoperiod of my lights is less than most, so I'm spending a lot less than that on fluorescent lighting.
Happily, I stand corrected regarding LED's and that's great. It appears that the quality of the lower priced fixtures may have reached the point I have been waiting for. $88 is more my price range. 
Thanks everyone. Aloha
Edited by Mark Peterson - November 10 2014 at 1:05pm
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JohnnyHeavens
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Posted: November 10 2014 at 2:17pm |
So the fan thing...Water blowing across the water cools the water. Which is nice. Maybe. However, the lights are still giving off the same heat and if the heat coming off the light is what you want to avoid the only thing you can do is generate less heat. LEDs can help with that. Let's re-cap. So fan to cool the water. Fan to cool the fixture. Fan to cool the room. Do we need a fan section in the forums? |
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Fatman
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Posted: November 10 2014 at 3:34pm |
JohnnyHeavens wrote:
Let's re-cap. So fan to cool the water. Fan to cool the fixture. Fan to cool the room. Do we need a fan section in the forums? |
I think so. I'd be a BIG fan of that. Couldn't resist.
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ReefdUp
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Posted: November 10 2014 at 3:56pm |
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Shouldn't need to cool the water if the fixtures are cooled and the room is cool. :)
Ok ok...poor beege...back on track...except I'm not familiar with commercial fixtures.
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Posted: November 11 2014 at 10:12am |
Fatman-Awesome!
ReefdUp-I know :)
beege-I have only been reefing for a couple years now and most of everyone else posting here has some multiple of that but I can say that I've never had trouble with LEDs growing coral. It's all I've used since the (my) start. My main lights are nice but I started out relatively early in the use of LEDs so I went with what I felt was the best thought out and engineered commercial option at the time. The EcoTech Radion. I didn't feel I had many great options without going total DIY. I was already doing so much of it myself that I just didn't want to worry about lighting. I'm also a control freak (tm) so I spent more on my lights for the options I wanted.
Things are better now and LED is more tried, true, and trusted. Clearly there are some holdouts to the "LEDs are evil dark voodoo" but I'll bet Adam is right. while "lower end" those lights look like they will do pretty darn well and they are pretty darn cheap (low cost) too. In most any case you'll need probably 2 fixtures. You asked for mid-range so I'd say checkout the Kessils. Their A360 is $400ish and dim-able and controllable with an add on controller. Aqua Illumination (AI) lights are maybe the next step up in cost but have some more features built in.
Here is what I use. All of them not only sustain coral and/or Anemone but also grow them :) Main 150g tank: 2x Radion Gen3 Pro Frag 60g tank: 2x Radion Gen2 Pro (just moved from main display where they were upgraded from Gen1 Radion before that) (no pics-weird of me) QT/Hospital 16g tank: AI Hydra (no pic) Work 34g RSM 130D: Steve's LEDs retrofit semi-DYI kit Daughter's Biocube: Rapid LED's retrofit semi-DIY kit (no pics handy)
I know others would have pics of some other systems so check some build threads. Anyhow, I do believe some fixtures are better than others but in short, them new fangled LED git-ups they can grow stuffs good.
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: November 14 2014 at 12:28am |
LED's are the future lighting of this hobby.
I found out today that I have seen that $88 LED fixture in action. My standards/requirements for lighting are pretty high so please don't not buy it just because of me. I've grown coral for profit for almost 20 years. In my opinion, the spectrum emission of that $88 eBay unit is not that great for coral and in one tank I saw, I blamed the yellowish light for excessive hair algae growth.
I'm going to wait till the good but expensive LED's drop further in price before I invest that kind of money. Thanks to all the people buying LED fixtures, traditional and reliable t5 fixtures can be found here on the forum for a great price and there are ways to get the light tubes for less than retail price. I can do a bank of t5 lights for about $80/year which works out to be pretty economical in comparison to the expensive LED's.
Ever since they were introduced about 8 years ago, I've said that LED's are the future of this hobby. They just need more time to get good and cheap so the King of Cheap (me) can break down and buy them. 
By the way, LED's do lose their efficiency and dim over time. About 5-10% per year is what I've seen.
Aloha, Mark
Edited by Mark Peterson - November 14 2014 at 12:32am
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Fatman
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Posted: November 14 2014 at 12:54am |
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Hum, the reduction I have heard has been about 15% in 7 years. So in 7 years I'll turn mine up from the 35% they are running at now to a number that makes up for it. But in the interim I'll have a very nice set of lights that I don't have to change out at least once a year, that I can adjust to my hearts content 5% start, 35% at half way, then gradual dimming until dusk from my phone no less. If I want to change colors around a bit, I can remove a few, do some basic calculations and solder the new ones in the system.
You may need a new ax, that one has been ground way down.
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Posted: November 14 2014 at 4:05am |
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Mark, how about you post or send me your fixture initial purchase price, cost in bulbs yearly, and how much your power company charges per kw. I'm happy to do a cost comparison for you.
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Dion Richins
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Posted: November 14 2014 at 7:18am |
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I love my leds and they preform well. However cheap leds fixtures will get you just that. Cheap fixtures.
After seeing the pile of cheap fixtures one of the maintenance company's collected after taking over another company's accounts I would never do it. A year to 16 months on a cheap fixture isn't worth it. Spend a little more and buy a brand name with a track record of lasting years. Then you don't have to worry about it burning up in a year.
JM2 Cents.
Edited by Dion Richins - November 14 2014 at 7:18am
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Adam Blundell
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Posted: November 14 2014 at 7:58am |
I use those lights and my tank looks fantastic. Come over and check it out anytime.
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