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UPDATE - almost all LPS slowly receeding!!!!!!

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    Posted: February 19 2016 at 7:24pm
Do you ever put trace minerals into the tank? I was having recession and picked up a small bottle and started adding it and the recession went away.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phys Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2015 at 1:13am
Best I can think of is to test regularly keeping parameters stable. Dose small amounts to keep the parameters within 50ppm and don't dose more than 50ppm each time to reduce stress. I would suggest doing water changes but keep the levels stable around the parameters of the salt as to keep from changing them too much when doing water changes. Double check temperatures with more than one thermometer and keep the flow around the lps adequate, but nit too fast as to tug on the polyps. Only run phosphate remover if its beginning to get too high and only until it gets to a trace amount. Run carbon every few weeks to help remove the chem that are put off by the corals.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2015 at 6:33pm
Patience.
I'm not sure how long the Alk was low but it probably took months of low Alk before the LPS started to show the signs of their suffering. It will take some time for stable parameters to help the coral stop receding and start to recover.

Okay, I'm going to give my advice to each point of the previous post:

Unfortunately, when parameters are good, large/frequent water changes are more often stressful to coral rather than helpful. Stability is good. Change is bad. Lots of new water is a change. Wink See the logic?

Phosphate(PO4) typically does not increase immediately after removing the PO4 removal media. Give it time. I'm going to go out on a limb here. Now that we can see a pic of the Green Mushroom Leather I believe it's safe to assume that a low PO4 level is probably not the problem and certainly not the entire problem. If PO4 were at zero and had been for a while, that particular coral would not be doing so well. Yes, a valid test would be good. Get a new test kit or have it tested.

In a previous post, I may have suggested (or was it in another thread), the cessation of Benepets Coral food, because it caused problems in LPS for another hobbyist. What the...  Well, it can't hurt to stop using it temporarily and if it is indeed the culprit or one factor in a combined issue, improvement might show rather quickly.

The sign of chemical warfare is clear to me. I'm not sure why others can't see it.  Look how the Green Mushroom Leather polyps bend with the water flow and they are clearly bending toward the right side of the Chalice. To add to the issue, the Green Mushroom Leather is shading the right side of the Chalice. Shocked Lack of light energy combined with toxic chemicals!



It's okay. You're not alone. We've all been here too. Just a tip: Frustration is easier to handle when the issue is seen as a challenge. A problem that will be solved. That is the NATURE of this hobby. Mother Nature is complicated. That's one reason I love this hobby (the hobby I'm having to de-emphasize, for purely political reasons Embarrassed )

Aloha,
Mark  Hug

Oh, one last tip. Overcrowding can be a serious issue in this hobby. I believe that applies here. This tank is definitely at the limits of overcrowding. In my experience, all those coral covering the sand may be causing some of the problems. Sorry. Cry My advice: more open sand - less coral - better growth/health
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kevski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2015 at 1:30pm
Marcos thanks for the input.  I dont think its gettting stung because it is a couple of inches below the leather and if it is being stung  that wouldnt explain why all my other LPS are receeding also... 6 acans, 4 chalices and candy cane.  All of the other LPS are located in areas where there is nothing close to them that could sting them (my acans are all in the front corner of my tank away from everything else).  And the mummy eye started receeding about two weeks after most of my other acans had already started to receed.  So Im not sure what to think at this point???  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marcoss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2015 at 9:49pm
Sorry to hear. I personally don't think it's the leather. I have so many right now next to SPS without any issue. But you never know.

The recession looks more like a sting. At least to me. That leather has long sweepers. Can it reach the chalice?

What happens if you take something that is receding and place it far away from everything else that could possible touch it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kevski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2015 at 9:43pm
UPDATE!!! Its been 9 days since my last post...  and the recession continues!! Unhappy  NOt only that but an acan that hadnt started recessing now is also... along with everything else that was recessing is still moving toward a slow death.  
Parameters tonight:  Alk - 9.2, Ca - 420, Mag - 1400.  

I performed a 25% water change yesterday and have kept alk between 8'6 and 10.0, Ca range 400 - 440.

I removed the Chemi pure blue as recommended a week ago.  Checked PO and still at 0.  I realized however, that my API test kit is quite old... 2011.  So I need to get a new one.  Suggestions on raising PO?  I feed my fish once a day and have been feeding benepets coral food every other day.  

If any one has any further suggestions please chime in... Im starting to pull my hair out... what l have left that is!! 

Chemical warfare? I have a green toadstool that is now 4" in diameter.  Its growing like crazy.  All other corals continue to thrive!  SPS polyps out all day long! Heres a pic of my Toadstool, below it you can see the mummy eye chalice that is slowing receeding on the right side. 


Im starting to second guess the 100 gal starfire tank Im going to be setting up as soon as my stand is ready... This is frustrating!


Edited by kevski - November 03 2015 at 9:50pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kevski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2015 at 8:25am
When I said dosing I was referring only to Mg which I was wanting to raise to 1400. I actually work in Ogden so I'll check out that website and see if I can pick some up while at work. Thanks for everyone's input. I'll post an update in a few days. As of this morning it looks like the mummy eye is still receeding, but with lights off it was hard to tell with the others. Hopefully this recession will stop with the raised and more stable alk. If there are any other ideas I would welcome the input. Thanks!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2015 at 6:12am
Golden Pearls is a really good dry food made by BrineShrimpDirect.com The company is a WMAS supporter located in Ogden.
I may have half a bottle of Golden Pearls I could sell for cheap. I'll look later this morning.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2015 at 6:07am
I agree with Marcoss. I've heard the same thing about low voltage electricity actually helping growth. On one occasion our guest speaker showed us an open ocean coral farm in the South Pacific where they had stuck bare electrical leads in the water on opposite sides of a section of the farm. The electricity spread out so that the voltage passing by each individual coral colony was low. I believe the increased growth was negligible so the idea was eventually abandoned.
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Regarding stray voltage, assuming there is no Grounding Probe or that it was removed from the water when the readings were taken, a voltage level of 14 is normal (though .2 is unusually low). It's called "ground voltage". It can be as high as 40 Volts but when it's above 40 it means there is a bare wire coming in contact with the water. That's when the defective electrical item should be found and and removed. The Eheim Jager heater in this case is safe, not a problem. All electrical components add inductively produced voltage to the water. Over the years, I've noticed that some tanks do better with a Grounding Probe even when the ground voltage level is below the tolerance limit.

I'm glad we've met. I remember that incident. To add to my data base regarding LED's, a few months ago I saw a big old Frogspawn in an old established tank die off completely when it was moved just ~10" closer to the Radion Gen 1 lights.

Regarding dosing, at those satisfactory levels, Alk 9, Ca 410, and Mg 1310, I would not have dosed. I'm starting to wonder if the new attention to these parameters is actually causing stress, since the water had been running at lower numbers for a while?, the coral were somewhat accustomed to it and only started to have issues when it dropped below a low threshold level, like Alk <7. 

There's so much that can be different, yet can be okay from one tank to the next, I'm always cautious when it comes to what I call "chasing numbers". I found it's good to let each tank system find it's own best equilibrium of parameters, creating a dosing schedule only as needed to keep coral healthy and thriving. It's a balancing act. Smile

Aloha,
Mark  Hug
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marcoss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2015 at 9:02am
Seems to me like SPS would be the first to go with stray voltage. There is always some voltage though. Not sure what the threshold is for killing corals. In fact, some coral farms have been experimenting with adding voltage for years. I have not seen any hard numbers on growth, but rumors has it that it can actually help grow corals quicker. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote badfinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2015 at 6:31am
Yep stray voltage would be it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kevski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2015 at 11:42pm
Thanks mark and Jeff I appreciate your input!! I removed the chemi pure tonight and checked parameters again ...
Alk 9.0
Ca 410
Mg 1310
I dosed all 3 after testing. Incidentally I'm continuing to see recession on the emerald mummy it looks like one of my two last acan holdouts is now starting to recess also 😥😥
Out of curiosity I checked my tank and sump for stay voltage, sump was 0.2 but tank was 14.0 v. Could this be the culprit? Is 14 v too much? Is any acceptable? Determined it's coming from my eheim heater.
Mark, where do u get the golden pearls at? Any LFS? By the mark we've met in case you didn't know. I bought my green and purlpe hammer from you (the one that bleached out like crazy when I first put it under my LED's, I also bought my green toadstool from you when you were getting ready to move.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2015 at 9:18pm
I would also agree that the Chemipure Blue should be removed ASAP. I have a real problem with all the unique products sold in this hobby. The way I have come to look at it is, Mother Nature doesn't need them. She needs the stability of the basics so that she can care for herself. I believe that Nature can easily provide for it's own health and nutrition if we provide simply for Nature. 

This is just one instance, but I know a hobbyist that saw positive results after using Benepets new food but then lost an entire colony of LPS. It was Euphyllia, but by the time I saw it, I could not tell if it was Frogspawn or Hammer. I used the same food a few times but saw no change in coral. I believe that's because, like Krazie4acans, I was already providing a very natural environment where live food was prevalent and a large variety of mostly frozen foods, including algae and algae paste was offered. Night feedings of powdered Golden Pearls was also offered which ensured a large live food population of invertebrate spawn and larvae available for feeding coral.

Krazie offered good advice. If followed, I would say that in time these coral will stop receding and will recover. It just takes a while for coral animals to recover after an incident like this.

Aloha,
Mark  Hug


Edited by Mark Peterson - October 26 2015 at 9:20pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Krazie4Acans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2015 at 10:22am
Keep skimming but I would pull the Chemipure. Watch your hair algae for any change in growth. Change up what you feed. I have lots of different foods that I feed. Coral Frenzy, tons of different frozen, pellets, and some home made food that I switch between. I haven't tried the Benepets food yet but I did buy some at MWRF this year.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kevski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2015 at 9:58am
Should I skim less (I run it 24/7)? I also run chemo pure blue. I had a small outbreak of hair algae start 6 or more months ago and have been slowly getting rid of it... Mainly by pulling what I could with my fingers and a couple of turbos. It is mostly gone now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kevski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2015 at 9:48am
I have been feeding benepets coral food twice a week since I saw the first recession. Any other thing I should feed? I have also been spot feeding the Acans and candy cane a couple of times a week with mysis since this started. Thanks for the input!! I have 7 fish in my tank and feed them generously once a day. Any Other suggestions?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Krazie4Acans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2015 at 9:33am
Originally posted by kevski kevski wrote:

Thanks for the input. I brought alk up over 3 or 4 days. That could be a possibility but this latest mummy eye chalice just started receeding only a couple of days ago and I have had alk higher for at least a week now. I was thinking the recession should have stopped by now if it was alk related??? Do u think it could still be an alk issue?


If your Alk is up and staying up then I would say your now dealing with a lack of nutrient issue. If your levels are actually at 0 then that will continue to contribute to the problem. Corals (mainly Softies and LPS) need Nitrates and Phosphates (both in small amounts) in order to Grow and heal. So fixing the Alk level is one issue now you need to feed your system to enable the corals to recover from the damage that was caused during the low Alk period.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2015 at 8:56am
I agree with Krazie and with your first guess, that the coral are eating up Alk, Ca and Mg faster than it was being replaced by dosing and water changes. This "parameter balance" fell off the edge of adequate nutrition. It has been slowly declining ever since the addition of more coral, especially SPS. The coral are hanging on as long as possible but eventually those that needed higher levels of food(Alk & Ca) started to die. If the very low Alk condition were allowed to continue, most of the SPS would have been gone in a day or two.

It is extremely important to maintain Alk and Ca by checking and logging, frequently at first until a dosing pattern is established that will allow less frequent testing. Depending on the substrate used, Mg does not usually fall so quickly so monthly monitoring is usually sufficient.

Zero Nitrogen compounds is not a good thing for a mixed reef. Nitrate above zero but not much above 15ppm will allow all the coral to do better. Smile

Aloha,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kevski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2015 at 8:52am
Thanks for the input. I brought alk up over 3 or 4 days. That could be a possibility but this latest mummy eye chalice just started receeding only a couple of days ago and I have had alk higher for at least a week now. I was thinking the recession should have stopped by now if it was alk related??? Do u think it could still be an alk issue?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Krazie4Acans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2015 at 7:44am
How fast did you bring up your Alk? Going from 6.7 to 8.6-9 should be done over about a weeks time. Bringing it up quickly is just as bad as having it too low. I would keep it as constant as possible and give them some time. I suspect they are suffering from alk shock.
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