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Maintaining water quality in nano

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    Posted: May 28 2016 at 12:04am
Hey all, I'm debating getting a used nano aquarium when one pops up on the forum at an appealing price. So the question goes like this: Besides bio filtration, macro algae, and mini skimmers what's the best way to combat real frequent water changes in nano's? It would be at my place of employment so I can't mess with it daily once it's stable. Anyone use prime or nox p04 to combat nitrates in a stable tank? I know prime is good stuff, but never used it for nitrates. Looking to do a 10 gal or smaller and would have sexy shrimp, hermits, pom pom crab and one or 2 fish and maybe leathers and Zoas. Any advice is welcome. My 55 gal is doing good but small scale might be more of a challenge in a nano. Thanks all!

Edited by brandonp - May 28 2016 at 12:05am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bstuver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2016 at 1:08am
How often are you thinking you'd do a water change? With the corals you plan you should be just fine. I would stick to only two or so small fish and then the inverts. And don't feed a ton. I think I feed my tanks maybe 4 times a week. I love and prefer smaller tanks but yes if one thing goes out of whack there is less water to be able to change to correct it before it nukes the tank. I think you'll greatly enjoy it and find its not too much different than your home tank as long as you stick to easy corals:)
Jackie Stuver

"wait these aren't the happy Hawaiians oompa doompa godly heaven on your face zoas?   I dont want them then. lol!" Ksmart
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote evan127 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2016 at 8:50am
I agree with Jackie. Keep it small with the livestock, don't over feed and keep up on a water change schedule.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2016 at 9:32am

Originally posted by brandonp brandonp wrote:

bio filtration, macro algae, and mini skimmers what's the best way to combat real frequent water changes in nano's?

...to combat nitrates in a stable tank?

My 55 gal is doing good but small scale might be more of a challenge in a nano. Thanks all!

This is a good question. It speaks to the heart of what makes a reef aquarium so workable and attractive. It speaks to what process is the real workhorse of de-nitrification. Let's go to the thread that I always point to, the Reefkeeping Tips thread linked below in my signature line. The appropriate text is copied here for your information and learning:

" The principles and methods described [here] apply to setting up any reef aquarium.... Setup involves the use of four living components: LS, LR, LW, and Macroalgae. Setting up a reef tank in this way can actually skip the common waiting period; the traditional "cycling" you may have heard or read about. Simply put, the "cycle" is the processing of pollution that comes from dead and dieing things decomposing in the tank. The principles of biology used in the steps below ... practically avoid the pollution cycle, cleaning pollution as quickly as it forms. [And why not make water clean and pure from the very start, instead of letting it go very foul first, before it finally starts to get better in the traditional cycling method.]
This considers the use of Natures Four Live Components ...
LS, LR, Algae and LW *. These four live items compose [around] 90% of the filtration of a typical reef aquarium [especially small aquariums]. In effect, these are the most important components of aquarium filtration. The greater the quantity of these components used in set-up, the sooner the tank can be ready for coral and fish [and with these components a Nano Reef can function exactly like any larger aquarium and do it without a skimmer and with customarily simple 10% monthly water changes]. " Big smile

Okay, are you getting it? Is it making sense? To assist your understanding, let me show pics of three, no, four nano aquariums I have done. No skimmer, no sump, regular 10% monthly water changes.

Above, not my first Nano, but one of my best. Not just easy corals (SPS, LPS, Clam) and not just one or two fish (5 fish).

Below, in 2007 I picked up a 2 gal acrylic Betta tank at the DI. It became a micro-nano reef using a bubbler for circulation/aeration. I realize it's not looking very attractive in this pic. This is the only pic I can find. It was taken shortly after some messing around.

Below, two pics of a hang on the wall picture frame tank that is 4.5" deep. This tank, set up in 2010 and still running is ~14 gals, no sump, no skimmer, lots of fish, soft coral and heavy feeding 5 days/week. I see this tank just twice monthly and end up doing a 10-20% water change about every third visit.

Last but not least is this ~12 gal tank I called my Hawaiian Utah tank because the LR and sand was Utah Rock, Utah Oolitic Sand and LR / LS brought back from Hawaii. Set up in 2011, it ran at a friends house until just this month when, because of a lack of maintenance/lack of interest, it was taken down. Again, no skimmer, no sump, 5 fish, almost daily feeding.


Remember, Fish Pollute the water and Coral filter the water.

From what was said in the OP, these examples and information ought to change your understanding of how a reef tank can be set up and maintained. The natural processes of Natures Four Components do almost all the filtration. Macroalgae is harvested often to remove accumulated nutrients and to keep it from over-running coral and aquascaping. I've already mentioned 10% monthly water changes. Some of these tanks utilize a form of mechanical particulate filtration. The only other thing I do with the tanks above and with all my tanks is to run AC(activated carbon) to remove toxins and just the right amount of AA(activated alumina) to remove just the right amount of PO4 and trace Silicates.

Aloha,

Mark  Hug

BTW, I buy AC and AA in bulk and am happy to share with other hobbyists at a price that is less than online pricing.



Edited by Mark Peterson - May 29 2016 at 3:57am
Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks:
www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brandonp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2016 at 10:03am
Glad to know it won't be too complicated with the normal biofiltration. Good posts everyone. Thanks! Anyone ever use prime or the nox po4 for pollution in their cubes? Also I know ac stands for activated carbon. But what's aa?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2016 at 10:17am

I've done a bit of editing above so it might be good to reread it.

There is no need for any bottles of stuff. You can practically ignore everything the stores want to sell you. Those products are essentially worthless compared to the biofiltration done by Natures Four Live Components.

AA is Activated Alumina.

Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks:
www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote evan127 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2016 at 5:22pm
Personally, I would not add macroalgae into the display. Especially into such a small display. You'll find yourself pruning back the algae so much. I think if you stick to feeding an appropriate amount and keep up with your water change schedule, you can get away with not including macroalgae that will inevitably over grown and shadow out your corals. Plus, once it goes in it will spread like wildfire. It's like dandelions in your yard. I just don't see how the algae could be more productive than the water changes in such a small system.

Unless of course you like that look and it's what you're going for.

Edited by evan127 - May 28 2016 at 5:24pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1stupidpunk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2016 at 6:56pm
With regards to the skimmers... most of the skimmers designed to fit into rear chambers of the AIO nano aquariums are air stone driven garbage, dont waste your money.

I would add macroalgae directly to the tank but i would be very careful selecting which ones. Most caulerpa species grow extremely fast and you will be pruning all the time. I would select some of the slower growing and more colorful algaes; dragons breath, red gracilera, red grape, blue ochtodes, blue hypnea, sargasum... all would be good choices IMO.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brandonp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2016 at 9:31pm
I'd like some more aesthetically pleasing macro. But I've noticed it doesn't pop up on the forum often. I can always aquire the nice stuff as I go. I appreciate all the input.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1stupidpunk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2016 at 9:54pm
You live over in my neck of the woods... Im thinking about ordering a bunch of macro in the near future if your interested....
Live-plants.com has great prices but they only collect algae during certain seasons
Ebay always has algae available with some really neat color and rare stuff, but they charge the most
Reefs2go.com usually has decent prices with free shipping but they have horrible customer reviews and many people wont do business with them... I have ordered inverts/macroalgae several times with no issues

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bstuver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2016 at 10:03pm
If you go on nano-reefs forum there are usually people who sell a lot of cool macros. I got a nice pack from there about a month ago. When you get to that point I can let you know who I got mine from if interested
Jackie Stuver

"wait these aren't the happy Hawaiians oompa doompa godly heaven on your face zoas?   I dont want them then. lol!" Ksmart
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brandonp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2016 at 10:16pm
I've had bad experiences myself with reefs2go. I'll probably get in touch bstuver. How much ya spend on the macro pack?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bstuver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2016 at 11:17pm
I got all this for $50
Jackie Stuver

"wait these aren't the happy Hawaiians oompa doompa godly heaven on your face zoas?   I dont want them then. lol!" Ksmart
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bstuver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2016 at 12:00am
Here's who I got it from she has a couple for sale threads:
http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/373289-fs-display-macros-ochtodes-string-of-pearls-violet-flame-more/
http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/373367-fs-macro-algae-grab-bags/
Jackie Stuver

"wait these aren't the happy Hawaiians oompa doompa godly heaven on your face zoas?   I dont want them then. lol!" Ksmart
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2016 at 3:29am
Originally posted by too often heard or too often heard or wrote:

...I would not add macroalgae into the display. Especially into such a small display.
I mean no disrespect, but I showed four(4) examples of many I have done like this. Unfortunately, this is where hobbyists generally miss the boat. But maybe I expect too much. It took me a long while to work this out myself. I suggest we all take another look at algae. Sure, algae can grow fast. Yes, algae can require harvesting, but isn't that the reason we use it? Could that be a reason to use it? Because of the very fact that algae does grow and uptake nutrients/pollution, we harvest it and/or add herbivores to harvest it for us.

The pollution of N and P molecules in the water is consumed very effectively by Caulerpa and Chaeto and these algae grow fast or slow in response to the amount of pollution. This is one of the wonderful things about these Macroalgae. They work on demand. The red algae are lovely but cannot do the same job because they require a narrow range of pollution levels. Plus, they are more susceptible to predation, not only by fish, but all kinds of inverts. Eventually the red algae disappear. On the other hand, Caulerpa and Chaeto are not as tasty and they can do well in a wider range of pollution. Remarkably, their growth speeds up or slows down in response to the level of pollution. 

It's something of a balancing act using Caulerpa, a small ball of Chaetomorpha and Activated Alumina(AA). The amount of AA affects the growth of the algae and the amount of algae growth determines the amount of AA to be used. Notice how I said above "just the right amount of AA for just the right amount of PO4 removal." Achieving a balance of PO4 removal by AA while minimizing algae growth is doable. The evidence is in the tanks pictured above.

Aloha,
Mark  Hug


Edited by Mark Peterson - May 29 2016 at 3:49am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote reefnfeef Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2016 at 8:05am
I have a fusion 10 gal.

Livestock is:
pistol shrimp and goby pair
cleaner shrimp
4 rbta's
a few heads of euphyllia 
a few zoas/shrooms

The tank has a IM ghost skimmer. It does a good job as long as the water level is consistent. I manually top off so the skimmer is not always running at optimal efficiency. I do a water change every 8 weeks or so. Other than that I feed and top off once a day. 

If your stocking is minimal so will be your maintenance. 
aaaaaaaaaaaaaannd.... I'm broke
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote evan127 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2016 at 9:24am
Originally posted by Mark Peterson Mark Peterson wrote:

Originally posted by too often heard or too often heard or wrote:

...I would not add macroalgae into the display. Especially into such a small display.
I mean no disrespect, but I showed four(4) examples of many I have done like this. Unfortunately, this is where hobbyists generally miss the boat. But maybe I expect too much. It took me a long while to work this out myself. I suggest we all take another look at algae. Sure, algae can grow fast. Yes, algae can require harvesting, but isn't that the reason we use it? Could that be a reason to use it? Because of the very fact that algae does grow and uptake nutrients/pollution, we<span style="line-height: 16.8px;"> harvest it and/or add herbivores to harvest it for us.</span>

The pollution of N and P molecules in the water is consumed very effectively by Caulerpa and Chaeto and these algae grow fast or slow in response to the amount of pollution. This is one of the wonderful things about these <span style="line-height: 1.4;">Macroalgae. They work on demand. </span><span style="line-height: 16.8px;">The red algae are lovely but cannot do the same job</span><span style="line-height: 1.4;"> because they require a narrow range of pollution levels. Plus, they are more susceptible to predation, not only by fish, but all kinds of inverts. Eventually the red algae disappear. On the other hand, Caulerpa and Chaeto are not as tasty and they can do well in a wider range of pollution. Remarkably, their growth speeds up or slows down in response to the level of pollution. </span>

It's something of a balancing act using Caulerpa, a small ball of Chaetomorpha and Activated Alumina(AA). <span style="line-height: 1.4;">The amount of AA affects the growth of the algae and the amount of algae growth determines the amount of AA to be used. </span><span style="line-height: 16.8px;">Notice how I said above "just the right amount of AA for just the right amount of PO4 removal." Achieving a balance of PO4 removal by AA while minimizing algae growth is doable. The evidence is in the tanks pictured above.</span>
<span style="line-height: 16.8px;">
</span>
<span style="line-height: 16.8px;">Aloha,</span>
<span style="line-height: 16.8px;">Mark  Hug</span>




You don't mean to disrespect, yet you change my name in my quote to "too often heard"?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote evan127 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2016 at 9:28am
Originally posted by brandonp brandonp wrote:

I'd like some more aesthetically pleasing macro. But I've noticed it doesn't pop up on the forum often. I can always aquire the nice stuff as I go. I appreciate all the input.

Be sure to take lots of pictures when you get some cool macros! Definitely talk to Jackie! There are a lot of people on Nano Reef that have really cool types of macro algae in their tanks and sumps! Orange, red, purple, every shade of green. Invest in some nice aquatic shears though ;)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brandonp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2016 at 9:35am
Is Jackie on this forum?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote evan127 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2016 at 9:36am
Yep! She is bstuver
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