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smazzuca_4 
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 Topic: (FO)
Posted: September 04 2005 at 5:08pm |
Hey guys. I am re setting up my 55 gallon I am using a Emporer 400 a Via Aqua skimmer as far as filtration goes. I plan on dosing it with Bacter Vital. In 4-5 weeks I plan on placing the only fish I want to keep in the aquarium a clown trigger!I heard they are very easy keep sort of like damsels! What are your expierience with them? Now as you notice I dont mention live rock but I am deciding Im not going to use any  !!!!!!! Do you absolutley need live rock for (fo) aquarium? In your opinion?Will the trigger die without it? Thank you!
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Sam
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Adam Blundell
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Posted: September 04 2005 at 5:23pm |
Sam-
I think you are absolutely crazy. I can't imagine a tank without a ton of live rock. I'd buy that first, well before ever using bacter vital.
I don't think the triggers are that easy, but not difficult either.
Adam
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smazzuca_4
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Posted: September 04 2005 at 5:32pm |
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Adam, I have two other aquriums stuffed with live rock I also like live rock but all I am asking for you is not if I am crazy but if Live rock an absolute neccesity.
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Sam
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Adam Blundell
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Posted: September 04 2005 at 5:36pm |
I think it is very necessary. But I could certainly be wrong.
Adam
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: September 05 2005 at 12:36am |
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bacter vital... Don't waste your money! And don't waste 4-5 weeks. That's old school. With all that LS available in other tanks, just add a bunch of LS and LW, wait a few days and add the Trigger. But I'd still use some LR or some kind of decorations, otherwise there will be nowhere for the fish to hide or to be curious about or to pick at.
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Aquarium Creations
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Posted: September 05 2005 at 12:40am |
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I think a few days would be to soon...
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: September 05 2005 at 1:14am |
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Oh I forgot something. A good bunch of macroalgae close to the light, will ensure that any ammonia, which is probably what Fire Shrimp is cautioning about, will be immediately consumed. Chaetomorpha is perfect for this because it doesn't attach to anything. It's easily removed after a few weeks when the danger of an ammonia problem has passed. This may seem crazy, it's not in the books yet, but it works.
Edited by Mark Peterson
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Suzy
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Posted: September 05 2005 at 8:22am |
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You could set up a seagrass biotope. Just a few pieces of rock on the DSB
to make it look more natural.
I think you need either seagrass or rock to absorb some of the
byproducts your fish will create.
But, isn't a DSB as effective as live rock in that aspect?
The seagrass will remove nitrate and phosphate, both cause nuisance
algaes, right? Live rock, dsb only remove nitrate through their anaerobic
bacteria action, leaving the phosphate to build.
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smazzuca_4
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Posted: September 05 2005 at 8:32am |
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In regards to wahat mark is saying I am going to use lava rock and false corals. Still my question that has been unanswered is Will my trigger die without live rock.
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Sam
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Suzy
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Posted: September 05 2005 at 8:57am |
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Live rock will filter the water, removing nitrate before it reaches toxic
levels. It also bring all those little bugs and worms that keep your DSB
heathy.
I think replacing the live rock with something else is OK. But, I don't
think false (fake?) corals will replace them. Easy soft corals filter the water
and won't get covered with algae and detritus and gunk.
I know Triggers eat SPS, but would they eat encrusting gorgonian or
leathers or woods polyps?
I heard Lava rock leaches phosphates...
I don't think your trigger will die without live rock if you replace the live
rock with some alternative...
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Suzy
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Posted: September 05 2005 at 8:58am |
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But, the DSB will need to be seeded with maybe just one or two choice
pieces of interesting Tonga Branch?
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Will Spencer
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Posted: September 05 2005 at 10:48am |
Everything that everyone said is valid, but there are a lot of people keeping tanks that do not have live rock and many of them are doing very well. The answer to your question is NO, the lack of live rock will not kill your Trigger. Other problems may crop up with your tank that live rock could help with, but there are artificial means of solving those problems. ie, skimmers, UV Steralizers, Ozone. Most of us just prefer the natural methods.
I am even now in the process of filling my new 130 gallon FOWLER tank with water. I also am planning to keep a Clown Trigger, although with several other fish. I have opted to use about 90% LBTR (Utah Rock,) and use about 100lbs of rock in total, but this is because I prefer it for asthetic reasons not because it is a must for my fish to live. Although I'm sure they will like it as much as I do.
As for your volcanic rock the only thing to keep in mind is that some volcanic rock leaches Phosphates and this can cause real problems with algae growth. Having said that I have some lace rock in the reef tank at my office.
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: September 05 2005 at 10:52am |
 smazzuca_4 wrote:
In regards to wahat mark is saying I am going to use lava rock and false corals. Still my question that has been unanswered is Will my trigger die without live rock. |
Plain answer: "No"
But until you posted that you were planning to use Lava Rock and fake coral, I was wondering why would someone go with just sand.
Since coral and LR are so easy to maintain, much easier than fish, we may all be wondering why you would avoid them, even for a Trigger. The reason Triggers are said to be unsafe for reefs is because they eat shrimp and crabs, not coral and not LR. So IMO the better choice for aquascaping would be LR and live coral because they, along with LS, do 80% of the filtration. Your skimmer and HOB filter are less important. In fact, for a fish only tank the skimmer is practically unnecessary!
Also, like Suzy and Will said, Lava rock creates terrible algae problems so I would never use it, even for a fish only tank.
Also lava rock and false corals need to be bleached from time to time to take away the dinggy dark algae color. LR needs very little attention. Like Will said, LBTR (free Utah Rock) is an excellent alternative because it quickly gives all the advantages of of LR without the price tag.
Edited by Mark Peterson
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smazzuca_4
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Posted: September 05 2005 at 10:55am |
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Could I use base rock? And will my skimmer and filter I mention fix most of those problems and what problems do you thi will run into? and/or will water change fix it?This might be a stupid question but how do I start the cycle in a FO tank?
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Sam
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: September 05 2005 at 11:08am |
Base rock is typically dead LR. The LFS sells it for ~$1/lb. Utah rock is free. Use it for base rock.
A skimmer and HOB filter do about 20% of the filtration so the answer is, No they don't "fix" problems, but they do help with filtration.
Water changes do fix problems but do not prevent problems. LS and LR prevent problems.
Cycle? We are giving you a better method to start any aquarium than the old "cycling" procedure. LS (Live Sand), LW (Live Water), LR (Live Rock) and Macroalgae take care of the filtration needs. When those things are added from your existing tanks, there really is very little "waiting for the tank to cycle".
Edited by Mark Peterson
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Will Spencer
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Posted: September 05 2005 at 11:09am |
To start the cycle in a FO tank buy a pound or two of shrimp from the grocery store. Throw 1 or 2 in the tank and eat the rest for dinner. These will decay creating amonia and starting the cycle in the tank. An even better way is to get some LS and LW from another tank like Mark said. They also need something to act on in order to grow, (like the shrimp), but this will make the cycle much faster as it won't have to start from scratch.
This is what I'm doing today. A big water change on my 180 and adding the old water from there to my new tank. Then I'm taking half the sand from my refugium and adding to the new tank. Then replacing new sand in my refugium. Also I'll be taking a few small pieces of live rock from my 180 gallon tank to seed the Utah Rock.
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Will Spencer
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Posted: September 05 2005 at 11:12am |
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By the way, I have a tub of leftover Utah Rock that will not be going in my tank. If you would like it it's yours. Free of course. I live in West Jordan. Let me know if you want it and are close enough and want to pick it up and I'll PM you my address.
Edited by wsinbad1
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: September 05 2005 at 11:14am |
I think I just remembered, you are actually in Canada, aren't you. So you don't have access to Utah rock. Sorry.
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deedo
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Posted: September 05 2005 at 11:18am |
smazzuca,
there is a tank excactly like the one you were planning at primary childrens hospital. it's all lava rock and giant coral skeletons. You might want to go up there and ask a few questions.
I thought it was cool to see something so different. Seems like quality lava rock and coral skeletons would become a great biological filter in time.
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: September 05 2005 at 11:27am |
deedo wrote:
Seems like quality lava rock and coral skeletons would become a great biological filter in time. |
Sure, but I will bet that the history of that tank is littered with algae and dead fish problems. A maintenance company periodically removes every rock and dead coral, gives it a chlorine soak and replaces it along with the addition of new fish. Part of the biological filter has to start over every time. Tanks like that actually perpetuate their own need for maintenance.
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