Facebook
Twitter

Utah Reefs Homepage
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Plumbing my 210/Sump/Fuge
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Plumbing my 210/Sump/Fuge

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
ElwoodUT View Drop Down
Guest
Guest


Joined: May 28 2013
Location: Perry
Status: Offline
Points: 125
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ElwoodUT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Plumbing my 210/Sump/Fuge
    Posted: September 13 2016 at 10:18am
I'm going to do a Herbie system and a separate refugium and sump.   Mark Peterson came by the other day and helped me plan this out so hopefully I absorbed allows the info he was giving me.
Please let me know if you see anything that could use improvement.

I have not failed....I have just found 1000 ways that don't work.

210 Gallon Dual Overflow
Life Reef LF1-200S Sump
40 Gal Refugium
Back to Top
Krazie4Acans View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: December 17 2012
Location: Syracuse
Status: Offline
Points: 23379
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Krazie4Acans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 13 2016 at 11:36am
How much flow are you planning to have running through your tank? Most people prefer not to have the entire flow of their system run through their refugium. In a system as large as yours I believe you would not want that much flow in the refugium.  I would personally find another way (T'd off of the drain or using another pump in the sump) to feed the refugium instead of having a passive flow between design between the sump and the refugium.

That's just me though. It will probably work as shown but passive flow areas have caused issues for me in the past and so I try to avoid them.
My ocean.
90g (yup, won it!), 40g, 28g, & 10g Systems
PADI Advanced Open Water
Tank Thread:
Back to Top
ElwoodUT View Drop Down
Guest
Guest


Joined: May 28 2013
Location: Perry
Status: Offline
Points: 125
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ElwoodUT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 13 2016 at 12:51pm

Thanks for the input Krazie, my theory is that the refugium is large enough to diffuse the current.  It is a 40 gallon acrylic tank with 4 chambers divided by the flow-through baffles like you would see at a LFS.  I figured that if I fill the first chamber with live rock to disperse the current, second with Calurpa and third with Chaeto it should create a great habitat for critters.  Thoughts?

Not sure exactly how to calculate the flow...I figured I would get as much flow as possible with the drain remaining quiet and adjust the return to where it needs to be to keep the tank at a stable level.  I don't think I included a gate valve on my return line in the drawing now that I think of it, I'll have to add that.

I have a reeflo dart return pump that came with the tank and I'm not sure the gph it's capable of.  I'll do some research when I can get home and take a look at it.

I have not failed....I have just found 1000 ways that don't work.

210 Gallon Dual Overflow
Life Reef LF1-200S Sump
40 Gal Refugium
Back to Top
Krazie4Acans View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: December 17 2012
Location: Syracuse
Status: Offline
Points: 23379
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Krazie4Acans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 13 2016 at 3:07pm
A dart with about 6' of head will move ~2700gph of water. That means that the entire content of that refugium would be replaced every minute. That's a ton of flow through a refugium. You will probably not be running it full open but you get the idea.

You've got the adjustment of the drain figured out correctly so that is good. You need to include a gate valve on both drain lines (one on each side) and the emergency drains are straight through.

I hope that helps paint the picture I'm describing.
My ocean.
90g (yup, won it!), 40g, 28g, & 10g Systems
PADI Advanced Open Water
Tank Thread:
Back to Top
Mark Peterson View Drop Down
Paid Member
Paid Member
Avatar

Joined: June 19 2002
Location: Murray
Status: Offline
Points: 21413
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 13 2016 at 4:34pm
Here is an idea.
Split the drains, one to the sump/skimmer area and one to the Refugium. Then plumb the outputs of both directly to the return pump. That way the skimmer and the Refugium each get half of the draining water and the flow through each area is reasonable, not so swift.
Remember to isolate each line to the return pump with a ball valve for flow adjustment, maintenance and repair.

A Skimmer can be placed on a pedestal, so rather than worrying about the sump water level, simply adjust the height of the pedestal.

For the return to the Sea Swirls, use 1" Spaflex all the way up into a Tee at the top, each side bushed down to 3/4" spaflex or vinyl tubing leading to the Sea Swirls. 

Aloha,
Mark  Hug
Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks:
www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244
Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
Back to Top
ElwoodUT View Drop Down
Guest
Guest


Joined: May 28 2013
Location: Perry
Status: Offline
Points: 125
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ElwoodUT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 14 2016 at 7:57am

Krazie, Now that you calculated the flow it definitely sounds like it could be way too much!

One side of my sump goes to the skimmer and the other goes to the media reactors so I would prefer to keep both drains in the sump.  Since I have 4 separate chambers in my refugium I could plumb one of my sump drains to the first chamber and flow through the refugium and the other to the last chamber where my return pump pulls from and that should decrease the flow through me macro algae significantly.

The return on my reeflo dart is 1.5" so should I reduce that to 1" spa flex or should I keep it at 1.5" until it splits to the sea swirls?  Or does this not really matter since the pump can push more water than I require?



Edited by ElwoodUT - September 14 2016 at 7:58am
I have not failed....I have just found 1000 ways that don't work.

210 Gallon Dual Overflow
Life Reef LF1-200S Sump
40 Gal Refugium
Back to Top
ElwoodUT View Drop Down
Guest
Guest


Joined: May 28 2013
Location: Perry
Status: Offline
Points: 125
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ElwoodUT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 14 2016 at 10:19am
I have not failed....I have just found 1000 ways that don't work.

210 Gallon Dual Overflow
Life Reef LF1-200S Sump
40 Gal Refugium
Back to Top
Krazie4Acans View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: December 17 2012
Location: Syracuse
Status: Offline
Points: 23379
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Krazie4Acans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 14 2016 at 10:31am
That configuration may require some more ball/gate valves to control the flow into the front of the refugium and into the return area. It may also require you to constantly tweak those valves with changes.

Personally I would move the return pump to the sump and use an additional pump to return water to the sump from the refugium so that the flows in each one are separate. The refugium would still be free flow into it but that flow is controlled by how much water is being pumped back into the sump where the return pump returns it to the display. If your return pump fails the refugium will continue to circulate water between the sump and refugium. If the refugium pump fails then the flow there will become stagnate but not effect the working of the sump.

Reducing the pump output to 1" shouldn't really have much effect on this setup unless your sump and fuge are in the basement where the pump has to push the water much higher.


Edited by Krazie4Acans - September 14 2016 at 10:34am
My ocean.
90g (yup, won it!), 40g, 28g, & 10g Systems
PADI Advanced Open Water
Tank Thread:
Back to Top
ElwoodUT View Drop Down
Guest
Guest


Joined: May 28 2013
Location: Perry
Status: Offline
Points: 125
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ElwoodUT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 14 2016 at 11:13am

Krazie,

I think that is really making sense but I'll have to buy an additional pump for the refugium to the sump.  

That would make the intake from the sump to the return pump a 1" tube.  Is that going to be enough to feed my return pump?

I figured in my drawing that the sump water level would dictate the water level in my sump as long as I don't have my return set too high.  It would definitely be smart to add some ball valves to those transfer lines between the sump and refugium.

I have not failed....I have just found 1000 ways that don't work.

210 Gallon Dual Overflow
Life Reef LF1-200S Sump
40 Gal Refugium
Back to Top
Krazie4Acans View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: December 17 2012
Location: Syracuse
Status: Offline
Points: 23379
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Krazie4Acans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 14 2016 at 11:48am
Yes you would need another pump but it doesn't have to be anything huge so the cost should be less than ~$100.

A 1" intake for the pump should work as long as it is at the bottom of the sump so that it is fully submerged at all times and there is a short amount of pipe from the fitting to the actual pump impeller. That will allow maximum suction on the intake and you will have some restriction on the output side of the pump as well. It should work very well.

The level in your sump will be controlled by the amount of flow from your drains and the amount of flow in the return lines. The valves will be used to balance those and then the sump will only change level with evaporation or when the power turns off.
My ocean.
90g (yup, won it!), 40g, 28g, & 10g Systems
PADI Advanced Open Water
Tank Thread:
Back to Top
Mark Peterson View Drop Down
Paid Member
Paid Member
Avatar

Joined: June 19 2002
Location: Murray
Status: Offline
Points: 21413
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2016 at 2:19pm
I've been watching this over the last few days with interest. When I visited ElwoodUT at his home it seemed so clear. Now it's getting confused. Three things aren't making a lot of sense to me. 

Running one drain (half of the draining water) to the sump and then turning around and plumbing that water all the way over to the return pump compartment is the first. 

Secondly, I am slightly confused at the idea of using multiple valves to regulate water levels/water flow within the two lower tanks, the sump and the refugium. Water has a way of regulating itself always following the path of least resistance to reach the lowest level.

The third confusion is using a pump to move water from the sump to the Refugium when there is water that could be made available via a drain. Tank with one drain and split sumps with Skimmer and efugium typically use one valve to split the drain water between the skimmer area and the Refugium which then recombines the water at the return pump intake. Just FYI, it's not necessary to have all drain water go though all the filtration components.

Okay so here are my thoughts and opinions:
Because each side of that tank can drain a maximum of about 800 gph the return pump will have to be throttled back to 1600 gph. This is very normal for this kind of dual overflow tank run with a Reeflo Dart pump. As is always recommended, a ball/gate valve must be placed on the output side. 

To answer your question above, a 1" line from the pump leading to a 1" Tee will work just fine.

I have a question for you. Why do you want both drains to send water to the sump?

Below is a pic of one of my siphon/herbie type drains, showing the rigid netting used to keep snails and obstructions from reaching the gate valve. This was a 48"x36"x14" frag tank separated into two equal sides that drained into the one chamber where the drain was located. Each side of the frag tank was fed by the split return of a 1200 gph Iwaki return pump. Hope this view of a similarly plumbed system helps you figure out how to do yours.

Aloha,
Mark  Hug






Edited by Mark Peterson - September 15 2016 at 2:39pm
Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks:
www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244
Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
Back to Top
Krazie4Acans View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: December 17 2012
Location: Syracuse
Status: Offline
Points: 23379
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Krazie4Acans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2016 at 2:29pm
He explained in an earlier post that one drain goes directly to his sump and to the skimmer/return section. The second drain goes into the other side of the sump where his reactors pull water, mechanically filter it, and return it to the skimmer/return section. Thus he wanted to keep both drains in teh sump and not put one in the refugium.

I hope I got that correct.
My ocean.
90g (yup, won it!), 40g, 28g, & 10g Systems
PADI Advanced Open Water
Tank Thread:
Back to Top
Mark Peterson View Drop Down
Paid Member
Paid Member
Avatar

Joined: June 19 2002
Location: Murray
Status: Offline
Points: 21413
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2016 at 2:43pm
ElwoodUT/Preston bought the tank and its sump. It was his decision to add the separately purchased full Refugium. That changes everything.

Aloha,
Mark  Hug
Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks:
www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244
Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
Back to Top
ElwoodUT View Drop Down
Guest
Guest


Joined: May 28 2013
Location: Perry
Status: Offline
Points: 125
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ElwoodUT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 16 2016 at 1:22pm

Thanks for the input guys,

Since the sump was specifically designed to work with both drains running into it I definitely plan on leaving them in there. 

As far as running one line from my sump into my refugium and then back into my sump it appears that I don't have a good way to arrange that in the space I have without forcing some stuff to fit in tighter spaces than I would like.  I think I am going to plumb one line into the first chamber of my sump and the second sump drain into the 4th chamber of my refugium where it will basically run straight into the return pump bulkhead that's in that same chamber.

This will cause about 600 gph to be running through the refugium and about another 600 gph to bypass into the refugium into the return chamber.  I think that will be reasonable for the refugium and will keep all my filters and everything working as designed by life reef.

I'll take some pictures as soon as I get everything temp installed.

I have not failed....I have just found 1000 ways that don't work.

210 Gallon Dual Overflow
Life Reef LF1-200S Sump
40 Gal Refugium
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.237 seconds.