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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bur01014 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2017 at 10:43pm
Lighting is not your problem, it's water quality. I have a par meter and know this fixture well - at 12 inches awl your getting 350-400 at top of tank and 200 at sandbed. Just about right - if you get nutrients up u can drop it 4 to 5 inches more. 7- 8 hours all bulbs on is all that is needed. Dusk dawn business is up to you.


Birdsnest corals are your indicator corals, if they don't look good, the decline will hit the rest in a few weeks time. I'd feed more or lower your alk to nsw levels if your going to keep phosphate and nitrate that low.

Edited by bur01014 - January 05 2017 at 10:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bur01014 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2017 at 10:44pm
Run bulbs at 100%
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WaitForIt... Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2017 at 9:05am

i'm feeding enough right now to have a few small patches of cyano on the sand.  Although the testing indicates that the nutrient level is quite low, I suspect that the amount of macro I have in my fuge is masking some of the actual values.  I am incrementally ramping up the lights right now, so I hope in a week or so to be where it should be.

thanks!

It is possible that longing for something is actually better than having it. Satisfaction is the death of desire.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2017 at 11:02am
I would strongly advise against doing it in just one week. If you read again my first (?) post on page 1, I recommend taking 3 weeks. Sadly, a few years ago I had a lot of experience with sunburning my coral farm. I fatally burned 1000's of dollars of coral (estimated over $10,000 of future revenue) by allowing the intensity to increase too quickly. Like people, coral are harmed by sunburn.

Regarding an earlier thought, the light is shining through water that is quite clear, thanks to the activated carbon being changed monthly and the nutrient levels being quite low. Keeping the light fixture in it's present position should be okay.

The Cyanobacteria is growing because of the sudden increase in feeding. Due to limited feeding in the past, the tanks overall biofiltration is not adequate to stop it's growth. I would not increase feeding past the point you're at right now and maybe even cut back. If cyanobacteria gets any worse, let us know so we can help you deal with it. Temporarily turning on the Refugium light 24 hrs/day is the first and easiest step. Make sure the Refugium light is extremely bright, otherwise macroalgae growth gets stunted and it can't do its job.

In my experience over the years, I believe that irregular feeding works best. I skip at least one feeding each week and then feed a Thanksgiving feast every two weeks or so. There are several benefits to this, that I could go into, if you ask.

Aloha,
Mark

Edited by Mark Peterson - January 06 2017 at 11:40am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bur01014 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2017 at 11:11am
Originally posted by WaitForIt... WaitForIt... wrote:

i'm feeding enough right now to have a few small patches of cyano on the sand.  Although the testing indicates that the nutrient level is quite low, I suspect that the amount of macro I have in my fuge is masking some of the actual values.  I am incrementally ramping up the lights right now, so I hope in a week or so to be where it should be.

thanks!



cyano tells me a few things.

1. your phosphate is likely out of ratio with nitrate - you need to get nitrate up to 2-5 and keep phosphate 0.05 - 0.08 - google the redfield ratio.

2. your corals are starving - cyano sucks up nutrients more efficiently than any other algae, your sps don't have a chance to absorb nutrients before the cyano does.  Try to starve out cyano and you will starve your sps as well.  Algae and corals both need the same things.

I would encourage more feeding - get nitrates up, and triple your clean up crew as the cyano will inevitably get worse when increasing feedings, but will cycle through and burn itself out for other more manageable algae to flourish in which the clean up crew can keep in check.

I would be very cautious in increasing your light output and would go slow as the above poster noted (3-4 weeks).  Please watch alk during this process of lighting change, it will shift and you will need to compensate or more problems will happen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2017 at 11:13am
Now we need to look at PO4. The level of 0.3 ppm is too high for SPS to live comfortably.
Unfortunately, Phosphate cannot be adequately removed by algae alone.

The best media for PO4 removal is the Activated Alumina(AA) that I have. It is better than GFO, doesn't require a reactor, is better than the Kent and Seachem AA products and I sell it for less as well, because I buy it in bulk. Let me know by text if you want some.

And don't forget to add Astrea and Margarita Snails.

Aloha,
Mark
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Edited by Mark Peterson - January 06 2017 at 11:16am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2017 at 11:47am
Just for fun, a bit of trivia I learned not to long ago is that the symbiotic Zooxanthellae algae that live in and feed coral are a species of Dinoflagellate. In my mind that fact explains why Dinoflagellate and cyanobacteria tend to grow so easily in our tanks. It's a balancing act.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reefer4Ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2017 at 1:32pm
Agreed feed corals more using a good coral food I have had great success with the Benepets coral food Benereef. Slow as you go with light increases. Once a week imo to increase. Alk will be used more as the light period lengthens so be sure to watch it closely. The closer you are to nsw parameters the easier it is for algaes to grow so maybe here for the next few weeks keep your alk between 8 and 8.5, po4 at .3 is really high and you will need some media to remove it. GFO or AA will get the job done although AA can be thrown in a bag and put in a high flow area of the sump as where GFO for best results should be tumbled. Keep us posted this is a great line of questions and answers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WaitForIt... Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2017 at 3:43pm
Sorry to send the last thoughts on a side road.  My phosphates are at 0.03, not 0.3 as I stated earlier.  Thanks for the advice on the ramp up on lighting, I totally misread the first post.  I started supplementing with Rusty's reef food yesterday, which will inevitably increase the nutrient level.  i'll keep you posted on the numbers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote evan127 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2017 at 1:21pm
I also agree that it is not your lighting that is the root cause of the problems. I think that running an ultra low nutrient system with high alkalinity, as well as having very intense lighting, is the issue. Increase your nutrients and look into the Redfield Ratio. I would start increasing your nitrogen very slowly and then start feeding more flake and pellet food when you start to see your nitrate climb.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2017 at 7:15pm
It's quite crazy how hobbyist opinions can be so different. Certainly there are many different ways of doing things and some of those ways are successful. One amazing thing about life on this planet is its ability to adapt. I believe it's generally agreed that SPS coral need these three unique conditions:

1. brighter light than other coral;
2. cleaner water than other coral; and
3. more water movement than other coral.

Light - The 6 tube t5 lighting was set to peak at about 55% power level for an average of about 6 hours per day. Dawn-dusk ramp up times are not included in my rough estimate. As of this writing the photoperiod and intensity is being increased incrementally, aimed at eventually coming closer to 12 hours per day with the t5 fixture at full power.

Water chemistry - Parameters seem to be within generally acceptable ranges. The water is clean enough, probably too clean as has been discussed. The solution we seemed to agree on is to feed more and that has begun.

Water movement - We haven't touched on this yet. If it's not too much trouble, perhaps Geoff wouldn't mind telling us what pumps are operating and where they are positioned? 

Aloha,
Mark  Hug


Edited by Mark Peterson - January 08 2017 at 7:33am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 08 2017 at 7:27am
Okay. I looked up the "Redfield Ratio". My opinion is that this concept is very sound and that unbeknownst to me, I have been using the principle in a rough way for years. Smile

The technique, as I believe evan127 is suggesting, requires a hobbyist to daily monitor specifics of water chemistry and make fine adjustments with additives to keep algae from growing. It's usable on paper but in practice (IMO) is fairly difficult to accomplish. The information and technique have been available for years, but it has had trouble catching on in the hobby because of simpler/easier methods, mainly involving PO4 removal media and sufficient numbers of herbivores. 

My congratulations to evan127 for attempting this with his system and hope he continues to keep us apprised of its success here: http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=81189&PID=620239&title=evans-120#620239

Aloha,
Mark  Hug
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote evan127 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 08 2017 at 9:57am
I didn't think I was the first to mention the ratio in this thread. I thought someone else did, but I could be wrong.

I wouldn't say that you need to monitor it daily to follow this method. I check phosphate and nitrate once a week. Regarding nitrates, I check it once a week to see how much of a drop there is and that gives me a rough estimate (based on what I dose for NO3) for what I need to dose daily to keep that parameter that works for my reef. Same effort that you would use to calculate alkalinity and calcium consumption.

And maybe lets not highjack the thread and say that my reef thread is a great example of this method ;)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WaitForIt... Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 08 2017 at 12:23pm
I have four hydor koralia. One is 1150 gph, two are 850 gph and one is a small 450 gph to target a dead spot. Also directional return flow. Movement seems good, but I'm open to thoughts!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reefer4Ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 08 2017 at 3:17pm
I'm with it being primarily not enough light still. I am very interested and will be following along to see how things go.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WaitForIt... Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2017 at 8:18am
Quick update.  I started ramping up the lights intensity.  Channel one has a P+ and a C+, up to 75%.  Channel two with the remaining lights is up to 65%.  I haven't changed the photoperiod yet.  I think i'll wait until I've completed the ramp up completely to extend it.  So far, everything seems to be doing well.  My monti caps got mad and turned white in a couple of spots, but since they are near the top, I kind of expected that.  My acans have opened fully on the sand bed and my hammer and frogspawn have both started growing new heads, so that's cool.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote evan127 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2017 at 8:43am
Great to hear that things are going well! What is your current photoperiod right now?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WaitForIt... Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2017 at 10:38am
Evan,  it's the same as before.  Channel one on at 10am, off at 8:30pm.  Channel two on at 1pm and off at 7pm (I think).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reefer4Ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2017 at 2:56pm
Something to think about, running your whitish color bulbs so long could be another issue imo. I would make your first light 2 blue+ for the same photo period you have now with the coral+ and purple+ I would then have your 4 remaining bulbs come on the same time you have currently. It's how I do it on my tank and have pretty good color and growth on SPS to LPS and zoas.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2017 at 7:37pm
I agree. 
A 12 hour photoperiod of the most important color/spectrum, blue-actinic like in the natural ocean, has always been more important than increasing the intensity, in my experience. In other words, coral do better on a 12 hour daily period, even if it's just minimal light(several blue tubes), than they do on short daily periods of very intense whitish light. If you go back up and read what I originally wrote you'll see that increasing the photoperiod of the blueish light was my first step in saving the coral / saving the tank. 

It's important to remember 2 things:
- Blue-actinic wavelength light is a lot brighter to marine animals and algae than it looks to our eyes.
- Coral are the beneficiaries of lots of other living organisms in the tank and those organisms desperately need good light from morning to evening.

Aloha,
Mark  Hug
808-345-1049


Edited by Mark Peterson - January 16 2017 at 7:53pm
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