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speyside's new 90 gallon reef build!

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Mark Peterson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2017 at 12:30am
I promised to post a pic of the tank that uses the straight shot drain described and pictured above. Look here and drool:   Humongous Coral discovered in Local Reef
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2017 at 2:30pm
The pic I posted above is of an aquarium using a Herbie style drain. Durso Style drains do not use a gate valve nor do they typically use an emergency drain. Below I will address other points of our discussion.

You are right that drain flow restrictions, such as in that convoluted piping, will work in conjunction with the gate valve. Why remove it?  
My answer:
To reduce unnecessary weight on the delicate bulkhead Shocked , to save space, to maximize flow and to reduce risk of failure. The added weight of pipe and backed up water and a few bumps, the bulkhead is bound to leak. I have worked on more tanks than I can count and I've seen a lot of crazy cluttered plumbing. These Rube Goldberg Contraptions reduced efficiency and sometimes were an accident just waiting to happen. Exclamation

Both the Herbie and the Durso style drains suck water like a vacuum. The Durso device, operating at the water surface, also sucks air fairly violently. The little air port at the top of a Durso leads into a chamber of air which acts like a muffler to quiet the sound of the water-air mixture as it gets sucked down the pipe. The Herbie is quiet because it sucks only water. Both drain styles suck water at the same speed. My Modified Durso style drain is less bulky and is typically quieter than the standard Durso.

The use of mechanical filtration to catch fine particles is a method peculiar to tanks operated without a Refugium. Also, very mature tanks without a Refugium don't usually have too much trouble with fine particles, making mechanical filtration unnecessary. This means the hobbyist is freed of the arduous task of replacing and washing filter socks. Then the accompanying pollution problem caused by dirty socks disappears. One of the major drawbacks with filter socks is that they trap the sorts of living organisms which are essential for higher levels of operation of the entire ecosystem. At night a plethora of life comes out and floats in the system. Filter socks trap that life. A tank without filter socks actually matures much faster. My final thought on this topic; the uneaten food that gets trapped in a filter sock /sponge filter is food which helps the animals living in the Refugium to thrive, or, if there is no Refugium, that food cannot be returned to the micro invertebrate animals in the display.

Noisy waterfalls over baffles cause bubbles. Skimmers cause bubbles. Think of the sump as a river. Removing waterfalls, slowing the speed of swift flowing rapids and expanding the water channel are some of the ways to allow bubbles time to rise and pop. Alternatively, a forest of Algae or a clump of loose stringy plastic media create surfaces where the bubbles adhere, combine, rise and pop. A very inexpensive yet very effective, no bubbles, sump-Refugium is discussed here: http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=36396

Hope this helps a little.
Aloha,
Mark  Hug
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote speyside712 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 27 2017 at 10:30am
Oh I almost forgot.
Mark - To answer your filter sock question.

What exactly is the goal of running a system without using filter socks or any type of mechanical filtration?  All I am trying to use them for is to polish the water and make it more visibly appealing to the human eye.  I would agree that they are not necessary for coral or fish to thrive, but I feel like the water looks cleaner and clearer to me when using them.

They can become nitrate factories and restrict flow if not cleaned/replaced regularly.  But if they are properly maintained I think they provide a nice visual enhancement to the reef.

I would love to hear about your setup that doesn't use them though.  Do you have a link to another post?

My sump also has some filter floss type blocks that sit in the bubble trap.  I find they work more for reducing bubbles rather than catching detritus, but they do a little of both.

Speaking of bubble traps, does any one else find they actually make more bubbles then they trap.... I've had this issue with my last two tank setups.  I assume the problem is that I am not keeping the water level high enough in the return pump section of the sump, however I want that section as low as possible, to reduce the water volume in the tank and prevent a display overflow in the event of clogged overflows.

When water flows over the first section of the bubble trap it splashes into the final section, creating bubbles.  A few of those get sucked up the return pump and into the display.


Edited by speyside712 - July 27 2017 at 10:34am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote speyside712 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 27 2017 at 10:26am
Mark -

I would agree with you that your overflows are much less restricted and probably have more flow through the same diameter pipe.

My question then becomes, is my flow really being restricted enough to consider re-designing it, or would opening up my gate valve a little farther than you open yours make ours equal?  I'm not sure if you are running a full siphon on the example above or if you are using more of a durso type design, that would also affect the speed the water is moving (is it being sucked in like a vacuum, or falling gracefully LOL).

At the moment I have the gate valve restricted a decent amount, in order to tune the system to stay perfectly level in the overflow box.  If I wanted more flow, I could turn my return pump up from setting 3 (where it currently is) to 4 or 5 and open the gate valve a bit more.

I guess what I'm thinking here is that I'm already not running my return pump at full power on purpose, and making this type of change would require me to run it at a higher setting.  I do this to mainly to reduce the total amount of water in the system.  As i'm sure you know, running a pump at a higher speed, even with more flow coming through the overflow, still requires more water in the system because more of it ends up in the display tank waiting to go through the overflow box teeth.  As you mentioned before, the limiting factor becomes the teeth at the top of the overflow box.  They only allow so much through at a time.  The teeth in my overflow box currently rise about an inch above the water's surface, so I have some room to go before its technically full.  However I really like having less water in the system for the unlikely scenario that a team of turbo snails decides to clog all the overflows at the same time.  When this happens its nice to have as much extra room in the display as possible (especially considering I have an auto-top off that will kick on for 15 seconds or so in this scenario) so that your return pump will run out of water (and shut off in my setup due to a float switch) before the display overflows.

The wave makers in the display also make this situation a little scary, as the water is rocking back and worth in the tank, so it doesn't have to be completely full to spill out.

I guess what I'm saying is that I am ok with running my return pump at half power and having my overflow pull water more slowly out of the tank if it means I can keep less water in the system.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote speyside712 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 27 2017 at 10:08am
in reply to Krazie4Acans -

Oh ok thats good to know. I think I would like to upgrade here pretty soon.  I have a number of other pieces of equipment that are all apex ready that I would like to be able to control.

I like the idea of the controller being more of a backup to add additional redundancy to the system.  I'm a programmer by day, so I have a ton of If/Else-Statements in my head that I would like to be able to use on the tank... "If auto-top off runs for more than 30 seconds, kill the power to it","If the temperature goes above 80.0, kill the heaters", "if it goes above 81, kill the lights and turn on the fans and send a warning text to my phone"

I assume you can do this type of thing with the controller right?

I also love the idea of the leak detectors, and being able to monitor things without using the old fashioned test kits.

What types of probes do they make other than the standard r that come with it? ORP, temp, salinity, PH

Are there probes out there for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate or any of the other things we commonly test for?


Edited by speyside712 - July 27 2017 at 10:11am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 27 2017 at 10:07am
I have been using the Flipper for many years. Thumbs Up Thumbs Up
As you run it along you can feel it scrapping the algae. Minute spots of Coralline Algae that have just landed on the glass and started to grow are scrapped off before they are even visible. 

BTW, Two 45's used to make a turn is more drag than just one 90. Have you ever felt inside of a PVC joint? Where the pipe goes in it makes a ledge all the way around. That ledge creates drag. As you can probably tell, I have put a lot of thought into the mechanics of flow. As I said above, the drain line is where it really matters because we don't have the luxury of turning a knob or pushing a button to increase the flow. I agree, colored pipe and fittings looks really cool, but under the display tank is where things need to be completely functional.

The drain line I see in this pic has at least 18 (eighteen) of those ledges, 
makes four 90 degree turns and
flow is futher impeded by a foot of horizontal travel.

Originally posted by speyside712 speyside712 wrote:

Go ahead Mark, let me have it! My goal here is to build a reef with as many redundancies as possible so as to not flood my house or kill the inhabitants. I'd love to hear your recommendations, even if they involve tearing it down and starting over  

I recommend removing that "Rube Goldberg" contraption and replacing it with this:



This drain line comes straight out of the bulkhead almost straight in to the Refugium.  Only two ledges and zero turns. The emergency drain beside it does the same thing. 

Something else. Remember in a previous post where I said it would be unnecessary to wait the 3 months you said you would wait before stocking this tank?  And you were so pleased to show off a pic of filter bags that were going to need washing. In the pic above, is there a filter bag? That's because this tank which has been running more than 10 years has no filter bags, in fact no messy mechanical filtration whatsoever. Would you like to see a pic of that tank and to learn how it's done?

Aloha,
Mark  Hug


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Krazie4Acans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 27 2017 at 9:55am
The new model had a rough launch for sure. I have two classics and a new (2016) model. They have all been solid for me but I didn't buy the 2016 until a year after it was released.

There are quite a few people that have issues with the probes but I have had my apex long enough to know that when I get a new probe I put it in my sump and let it soak for a week before I try to work with them or calibrate them. There are lots of posts about this and ways to "fix" the calibration issues but they are on the Neptune forum.

I'd be happy to help you with the setup if you decide to go the Apex route. You could choose to go with a classic gold model instead of the new one if you were worried about it but the probe calibration methods are the same.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote speyside712 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 27 2017 at 9:29am
I was originally planning on getting a new Apex with a wxm module to control the lights, but after reading all the reviews on BulkReefSupply I changed my mind.  Maybe you can talk me back into it?

These reviews of the new apex are pretty bad.  About half of them on BulkReefSupply are similar to this.  Do you have the new one or one of the previous versions like the classic?

I have heard great things about the apex junior.  Maybe I should go with one of the older models.  I was just having a really hard time getting the apex and extra modules for 800-1500 bucks (when you include a bunch of modules), when the ReefLink was only $100 and had great reviews.




Edited by speyside712 - July 27 2017 at 9:30am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hogie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 27 2017 at 8:16am
I love my flipper! Best glass cleaner ever.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Krazie4Acans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 27 2017 at 7:35am
Love the new toys. I personally would ditch the reeflink and get an Apex with a wxm to control the lights and WP10 but that's just me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote theresawhite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 27 2017 at 7:21am
It's like Christmas in July for you :-)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote speyside712 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 27 2017 at 12:36am
Oh I can't forget the flipper! I read some really good reviews about this mag-float type glass cleaner.  So far i've liked it a lot, its really easy to flip.  1 side has a scrubber pad and the other has a metal blade.  I was worried I would scratch the glass when I flipped it, but the blade isn't sharp so it doesn't appear to scratch anything.

I'm hopeful it will remove coraline algae from the front and side glass, fingers crossed!



Edited by speyside712 - July 27 2017 at 12:36am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote speyside712 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 27 2017 at 12:31am
I hadn't even thought about the flow being restricted in the overflow lines!  That's a good point.  I was completely focused on flow in the return line and never even considered flow being restricted in the overflows.  I'll keep that in mind for a future build.  As we all know, everyone wants to upgrade to a bigger tank someday, even if this one is brand new haha.



Anyway, I have a few more updates to add today. I've been continuing to work on the tank in all my free hours after work.  I received some exciting deliveries.  Pictures are below!

New Radion Pro Gen 4's

The mounting kits for the radions.

New ReefLink for the radions and an MP10

8 more filter socks (I've got 11 now, hoping this is enough so that I can make it a month or more without washing any).

A new reactor to run GFO and Carbon

2 of these wave makers (the tank will have 2 of these and 1 MP10)


Edited by speyside712 - July 27 2017 at 12:40am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2017 at 8:38am
Yes that is fine. The pump ought to be played with and adjusted to get the maximum flow without risking sump overflow. In the old days that turnover was often the only flow in the tank. These days we have the propeller driven in-tank pumps that revolutionized the hobby. I love em. They are much better and less trouble than the old Closed Loop systems.

Maybe I went on to much about elbows and piping. In retrospect though, I need to say that the volume of a powerful pump can simply be turned up to push water past the obstacles, but the drain is different. Drain efficiency can be severely compromised by fittings and changes in direction. The resulting drag can create flow and noise issues. Gravity and the pressure gradient of a display that is 5 feet above the sump is all the power we have to make water flow down. To avoid some of the problem, the drain line should be the straightest shot possible. I may be able to add a pic to show this. Watch for it.

Aloha,
Mark  Hug




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote speyside712 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2017 at 2:37pm
Mark, I did use some spaflex pvc in the system.  The piece coming from the return pump to the hard plumbed lines is spaflex pvc, just 8 inches or so.  I used that to reduce the vibration and noise that you can get when you have a fully hard plumbed system.

I considered using more spaflex, and possibly even the entire return line.  I eventually decided against it mainly because I like the look of a fully hard plumbed system a bit better.

I agree with you that avoiding 90 degree angles and opting for multiple 45's instead would increase flow.  I actually used this method on a previous build that had an external return pump.  I opted to use 90's this time instead because I had read on a few other forums that the loss of flow was not significant, and using 90's makes measuring, cutting, and gluing the plumbing a little less complicated.

It would be interesting to test how much each 90 degree fitting reduces flow.  I might have to do some googling for someones experiment on that.  There are some flow monitoring devices that can be connected to controllers.  I bet someone has already done the work for us out there.

I have ten 90 degree fittings, two 45's, a check valve, and about 5 feet of vertical lift from the sump to the top of the tank.  I'm sure that adds a decent amount of head pressure.  Here is the graph of my return pumps output:


I don't have a flow meter, and with my tank already being full its a bit hard to see how much its pumping at a time.  But using the old fashioned eye ball test it appears to be getting a pretty good amount of flow through into the tank. 

With a 90 gallon display and a 36 gallon sump, i'm guessing I have about 100 gallons of water total.  The sump runs about half full due to the baffle placement, and the rock and sand displacement in the display I would guess is about 10 gallons of water.  Leaving me with 80 in the display and 18 in the sump.  There is also some water in the plumbing and in the reactors.  So i'm guessing I've got right around 100 gallons.

If that is correct, then this pump is capable of turning over all the water in the system about 10 times an hour.  If the elbows and check valve are doubling the head pressure of the return line, then the pump would still be turning the water over 5 times an hour.  I think anything between 5 and 10 times an hour is acceptable right?


Edited by speyside712 - July 24 2017 at 2:57pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2017 at 7:06am
Spaflex PVC pipe has a curl to it because it's still warm out of the oven when it's rolled up for storage and delivery. Rotating the pipe into position takes advantage of that curl and where the curl is not enough I use a 45 fitting to make the bend to where it needs to go. A 45 degree angle is less obstructive to flow than a 90.

Spaflex is semi flexible so it naturally absorbs vibration. A short length of vinyl tubing at the pump is unnecessary. The curl can be removed by leaving the pipe on the car dashboard on a sunny day with the windows rolled up or by warming in a kitchen oven. 

I prefer Spaflex over rigid PVC because when working in the sump area I might bump into the plumbing. The last thing I want is to force, by leverage up the pipe, the bulkhead to push off axis and start leaking. Or worse, to break the bulkhead. Even worse is to crack the glass at the bulkhead. Cry

I have been there, done that, so I try to be careful. I have also over-tightened bulkhead nuts and threaded fittings which breaks/cracks the (relatively) soft vinyl bulkhead, rendering it useless.

Hope this helps.
Aloha,
Mark  Hug
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2017 at 8:20pm
I like the aquascaping. I agree with Paul about horizontal places for coral. It looks to me like there are gradual inclines from several sides making plenty of spots to place coral. I also see smaller rock making what I call foothills in front of mountains. I enjoy that look.

The sand, having had very minimal life and then killed in the sun and freeze for two years, in my opinion is just like brand new sand. I would not wait 3 months. There would be no need. As you know I don't cycle a reef aquarium. The tank can be set up with coral and fish in a week, while preserving the nice aquascaping and actually helping the display colonize with a lot of life within a month or two. If this sounds interesting, I'd be happy to discuss the method.

Noisy? One advantage to bushing up to a larger diameter pipe at the drains top section is that the suction power at the opening is reduced so that bubbles don't get sucked in as easily. See the pic below of how I do the drain pipe on a suction style drain. Note that in this setup there was no emergency drain. For several reasons it wasn't needed. Also note the simple rigid plastic screen used for a strainer, which keeps objects from going down the drain



Regarding the standpipes in the overflow and where to set the water level in that area, I do it a little different and it's completely silent. Besides being a larger diameter, I cut the main drain standpipe a little lower which allows the waterfall of bubbles to rise before they near the suction. The emergency drain standpipe is about 1/2" below the top of the tank and rarely gets any water coming down it. Using the gate valve I set the drop of the waterfall from the teeth into the overflow to about 1/2" to 1". Over time, a build-up of organic growth at the teeth waterfall seems to help quiet the waterfall.

"What method do other reefers use for [bulkheads]?  I feel like there should be an easier way.  Does anyone use the screw in type bulkheads instead?"
I learned a fail proof method when I worked for a professional reef aquarium maintenance company. This method has been used on hundreds of large tanks here in Utah. The bulkheads are thread-slip. This means there are threads on the upper and no threads on the lower end. A male adapter with rigid PVC standpipe screws in to the bulkhead, inside the overflow. Underneath, Spa-flex PVC pipe or rigid PVC pipe is glued into the lower part of the bulkhead.

For a suction drain setup, the gate valve is glued in the pipe about 12" below the bulkhead. If the bulkhead ever needs to be removed, the pipe is cut right at the bulkhead. The cut end is glued up into the new bulkhead. Though I am the King of Cheap, I found it better not to try and reuse bulkheads. Bulkheads are the most critical part of the entire setup and usually the most trouble to fix. If forced they can crack and/or leak. In comparison, a new bulkhead is cheap. Smile

Aloha,
Mark  Hug


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phys Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2017 at 3:58pm
Looks good! In my experience, try to make sure you have enough horizontal space to put your corals on. If you build your rock too vertical, you'll lose the coral growing potential and have a lot of shadowing. I cant tell how you have it from the front shot so just throwin this out there lol. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote speyside712 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2017 at 3:47pm
Got a few more updates to add today - 

I bought about 100 pounds of reefsaver dry rock from Bird World (before it closed down recently), and 20 pounds of pukani rock from BulkReefSupply.  I built the aquascape directly on the glass to ensure it was stable should any critters try to rearrange the sand below.  I glued each rock together using superglue gel and the quick drying spray.  That spray is amazing, it saves days of time waiting for glue to dry.  The final result wasn't exactly what I had in mind, but i'm sticking with it.  I tried to make it relatively open with a sort of stairway affect leaving different levels for various corals.  After finishing the rock work I poured in about 50 pounds of sand or so.  I am thinking of adding more, as its only 1 to 2 inches thick at the moment.

Here is the end result:



The sand I used was from a previously built thank that never made it past the cycling period and never had any life in it.  The sand has been stored wet for about 2 years in 5 gallon buckets outside on my patio in the sun.  I wasn't sure what to expect with the sand after being stored that long, through snow and sun for 2 years.  I was pleasantly surprised to find the sand perfectly clean with no mold or smell.  I imagine some anaerobic bacteria had made the sand their home, but I don't believe there is anything in there that could nuke the tank.  And even if there was some problem bacteria living in there, giving it a full 3 months to cycle and I assume the "good" bacteria will have taken over by then.


Edited by speyside712 - July 23 2017 at 4:18pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote speyside712 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2017 at 11:59am
Yep that's exactly right Mark.  The primary overflow standpipe is submerged and running a full siphon, while the backup just works to keep the water level stable and has a slow trickle of water running through it.

I've found its pretty quiet, but not completely silent like I had heard a herbie should be.  Lots of bubbles are being created when the water runs over the teeth at the top of the overflow.  These bubbles then get sucked down the main standpipe, making some noise as they go.  The water only has to fall about an inch and a half when it goes into the overflow compartment, so i'm surprised this is happening.  Has anyone found a solution to deal with this?  Putting a screen or filter floss up against the teeth would probably fix this, but also slow the flow going into the overflow... hmmm.

Mark you mentioned "just friction fit the tubes into the bulkheads."  I used fittings that adapt friction to screw on.  I glued the pipe to the fitting on the friction side.  So am I able to unscrew the pipe and remove these if needed.

I did a similar thing on the main bulkheads attached to the tank.  The standpipe in the overflow compartment is glued to the bulkhead and a 2 inch pipe coming out of the bottom of the bulk head is glued too.  The 2-inch pipe is then glued to a fitting that adapts the pipe to accept screw in fittings.  I used a dremel to trim the outside of the fitting down a little bit so that the bulkhead nut fits over the fitting.

The result is that I have a fully glued bulkhead like I wanted, but I am still able to remove it.  To remove it I unscrew the first union which allows the above pipe to spin.  Then I unscrew the small section of pipe that has union on 1 side and screw in fitting on the other side.  Once this piece is removed the bulkhead nut can be unscrewed and slide all the way down over the attached pipe and fitting.

What method do other reefers use for this?  I feel like there should be an easier way.  Does anyone use the screw in type bulkheads instead?



Edited by speyside712 - July 23 2017 at 12:01pm
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