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Will Spencer
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Topic: Lace Rock Issues Posted: December 16 2003 at 2:54pm |
When I bought my 150 Gallon tank for my office it came with about 80 lbs of Lace Rock. At the time I knew absolutely nothing about Marine Tanks, Fish, and Reefs. The tank had been in a Dr.'s office and was Fish Only. The lace rock that came with it had been in the tank for around 8 to 10 years. Since that was what was with the tank that is what went in it. Later I added about 80 lbs of Live Rock. The Lace Rock was used as Base Rock and the Live Rock is on top of that.
Since this tank was set up I've heard many different viewpoints concerning Lace Rock. "Take it out immediately or before." "No problem, leave it in.", etc.
I've not had time to do anything with this stuff, but over the last weekend I lost several fish and almost all 240 turbo snails that went in as cleanup crew have died over just a couple months. I've been told this may be due to phosphates and that Lace Rock may leach phosphates, but should not after 10 years in the tank. I've not purchased a phosphate test kit yet, but am looking for one.
At my wits end yesterday I decided to rip out all of the Lace Rock. Just as I was getting started I noticed to my surprise that It has Purple Coraline Algae growing all over it. (Why didn't I see it before???) Isn't this a good sign.
Now I don't know what to do. Any suggestions? Am I just paranoid about this rock because of what I've heard from others?
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Ryan Willden
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Posted: December 16 2003 at 4:30pm |
Only way to be sure is test your water. I'd pick up a phosphate kit from your LFS and check it out. Phosphate kits aren't too expensive, and are good to have anyway. You may also want to check for copper, but it's not likely to be present in your rock. Just a thought.
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seti007
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Posted: December 16 2003 at 5:53pm |
Copper might be a real concern here if the tank was originally setup as a fish only. I would try to find out if the FO tank was ever medicated with copper based medications which can seep into the rock and leech out later. I would do a copper test to be sure.
Edited by seti007
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Ryan Willden
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Posted: December 16 2003 at 6:29pm |
seti007 wrote:
Copper might be a real concern here if the tank was originally setup as a fish only. I would try to find out if the FO tank was ever medicated with copper based medications which can seep into the rock and leech out later. I would do a copper test to be sure. | Excellent Point! That didn't even cross my mind.
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KeoDog
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Posted: December 16 2003 at 7:27pm |
I agree with what seti007 wrote 100%.
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Kevin Kunz (Sandy, UT) 300g reef "A trade by which one gains and the other loses is a fraud." Ayn Rand
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Diverdan
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Posted: December 17 2003 at 7:57am |
It is possible copper killed the snails, but not the fish directly. If all the snails died and were left in the tank to decompose, this could cause an amonia spike and kill the fish. The water needs to be tested right away to see whats up. Instead of buying various test kits, I would take a sample of your water to a LFS (I would recommend Fish 4 U if in Salt Lake or Aquatica in Orem) and explain what happened and let them test your water for you for the odd things like copper an phosphates. Fish 4 U will run the basic tests like Nitrate amonia ph for free. But, you should atleast buy this test kits no matter what. Post what recommendations they give you here and we can validate if it makes sense. Sorry for your loss and good luck, it is just a bump on the road to a happy reef. Rich
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Marcus
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Posted: December 17 2003 at 5:49pm |
IMO, Dan is right, it takes a lot of copper to kill fish. But I have seen dead snails take out an entire tank before. How long has the tank been set up at your office? DO you know who died first? I was not aware that phosphates are a very big threat. http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/phosphatescare/a/aa060398.h tm I would not normally recommend lace rock in salt water tanks, but I think that if it was already in the tank for ten years, I don't think it would still be causing harm.
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djangoboots
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Posted: December 18 2003 at 7:41am |
I am pretty sure that lace rock does not leach phosphates as I have quite a bit of it as base rosk too and I have never had any phophates show up when tested.
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Will Spencer
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Posted: December 18 2003 at 9:14am |
Thanks for all of your reply's.
When I started having problems with the snails, I started doing the basic tests every few days. They always show about the same. Ammonia=0, Nitrite=0, Nitrate=10-15, PH=8.2, and Alkalinity=11. I don't have a Copper or Phosphate test kit yet, but I am looking. I haven't gotten to Fish-4-U yet to get one and can't find it at the nearest stores. When I do get to Fish-4-U I'll take a water sample with me. Great Idea!!!
I jumped at phosphates when I talked to Chris at Fish-4-U about my snails dying. He said high phosphates could do that. Yesterday Mark Peterson came out to look at the tank and cleared up a few issues for me. #1 I don't have Turbo Snails even though they were sold as Turbo Snails. I have Astrea Snails. #2 If I were having copper issues my corals would not be doing as well as they are. They are all growing like crazy. #3 As some of you have said the Lace Rock is probably not leaching phosphates and are in fact starting to grow life. Thanks for stopping by Mark.
I think my first mistake was getting the Powder Blue before I really researched it. I did enough research to know it was compatible in my tank, but that's all. I did not know that it was such a difficult fish to keep and that I really should have waited to get it until the tank was at least a year old. (It has only been set up for about 6 months now.) Of course, knowing me I would have gotten it anyway. They are my favorite reef safe fish. Lesson learned the hard way.
Marcus as for the dead snails taking out the tank, my hermits eat them almost before they are dead I think. At first I wondered if they were the cause. They are really small Hermits though.
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jfinch
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Posted: December 18 2003 at 10:32am |
I don't know if I follow your reasoning for #3. The rock could contain phosphorous and life. They are not exclusive of each other, imo. Phosphorous is required for life. No phosphorous, no life.
High phosphates can lead to unwanted algal growth and reduction in calcification rates. Phosphates are a great poison to calcification, that includes corals, snails and bivalves.
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: December 18 2003 at 4:00pm |
jfinch wrote:
...Phosphorous is required for life. No phosphorous, no life. High phosphates can lead to unwanted algal growth and reduction in calcification rates... | Will's tank did not seem to show unwanted algal growth. It does not have a Refugium, though with only a slight modification of the pump intake and the addition of a light, he can have a killer RDP Refugium. The tank looks great and has so much room to grow...I am excited about all the possiblities. The Tongue coral frag (on top of the large rock) from the meeting is very expanded: Tons of coralline algae spots on the lace rock. The tan colored plating Montipora is growing fast.
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Marcus
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Posted: December 18 2003 at 5:09pm |
wsinbad1, Those corals look familiar. Are they doing as good as they look?
Edited by Marcus
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jfinch
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Posted: December 18 2003 at 6:59pm |
Is the lace rock the green alagae covered rock?
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Will Spencer
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Posted: December 19 2003 at 9:27pm |
Marcus, Those corals should look familiar and yes they are doing great. The buttons keep reproducing, the Plating Montipora has doubled in size and the encrusting Gorgonia is encrusting everything it can get to. The Xenia has stayed fairly small though. Also the Closed Brian is looking as good as ever. Thanks Again.
jfinch, yes the green algae covered rock is the lace rock. Interestingly enough it had no algae on it until I increased my lighting about 2 months ago. I went from 110 watts of PC lighting to 370 watts PC. For a couple weeks it went really green and now is tapering off a little. Mark's pics make it look worse than in person. The little specks all over it are purple Coraline Algae. I though that only grew under very intense light like MH's. No complaints though.
I still plan on getting the phosphate and copper test kits, just because I think they are a good thing to have and test for occasionally. I'm also using a phosphate filter pad I bought from the LFS. Does anyone have experience with how well these work?
Thanks for the pics Mark and for taking the time to stop by.
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jfinch
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Posted: December 19 2003 at 11:01pm |
yes the green algae covered rock is the lace rock.
I would say there is something in the rock that the algae likes.
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Marcus
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Posted: December 20 2003 at 8:44am |
I agree with Jon above. Also, I'm glad to hear that they are doing good. How's the little 20 gallon doing? Phosguard pads work well, IMO. That's awesome that coraline is growing, you must be doing a great job with the tank. I think that coraline growth has more to do with alkalinity and calcium than lighting, IMO.
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ljbs
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Posted: December 20 2003 at 3:37pm |
Marcus:
I have the 20 gal at my home. It is doing just great. I got
frags at the first frag meeting and some from Suzy and also what
you had in it and the little thing is full of mushrooms, encrusting
gargonia , zennia, and wood polyps. My only problem was it wasn't
big enough so now I have a 150 also.
Edited by ljbs
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Marcus
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Posted: December 20 2003 at 3:39pm |
That's right, you bought Dan's 150. How's that doing?
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Shane H
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Posted: December 21 2003 at 8:45pm |
I have used lace rock to frag corals when I didn't have any other rubble. No problems. Coraline algae seems to grow on it nicely. BTW - the tank looks good.
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