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High Nitrates and low PH!

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Chris Scott View Drop Down
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    Posted: July 16 2010 at 4:01pm
Hi All,

So I tested my water today and below were the results:

PH 7.8
Nitrates 0
Nitrates 20
Ammonia 0
Calcium 500
Phosphates 0
Temp 78
Salinity 1.024

I have never had nitrates in my system since cycling, and PH has always been around 8.4.

The only major change that I have done since my last test was add more sand to create a deeper sand bed.  Do you think this could have caused it?  The method I was doing was to move my current sand out of the way in an area, then lower some wet new "Carib Sea - Ocean Direct - Caribbean live sand" to the bottom, then move my older sand back on top of this.  This is because my current sand is more coarse, and the new sand is fine grain and I wanted it on the bottom.

So this obviously stirred up some of the biological filtration that was already in that sand.  Do you think this process of adding sand caused the Nitrate spike or the PH drop?

I guess I should do a 15% water change to reduce the nitrates?  what about the PH?  I need to do this again to add more sand, as I couldn't do it all at once.  Could I add more/new AC to help?

Thanks!



Edited by Chris Scott - July 16 2010 at 4:02pm
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SGH360 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SGH360 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2010 at 5:02pm
the calciums is a bit to high. You need to balance your alkalinity and calcium to stabalize your ph. Nitrates water changes with RO water should lower them down. Nitrates are the end of results of your nitrogen cycled so expect alot during this last few days of cycling.
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BobC63 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BobC63 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2010 at 7:06pm

Eventually the 2 sizes of sand are going to intermingle and become 1 mixed layer, even if you never stir the bottom or anything like that. I don't recall the  name of the scientific preinciple behind it, but it will happen.

If you truly want to keep 2 different sand sizes in seperate layers you need to put a piece of screening between the layers to segregate them.
 
I think the nO3 shot up because you disturbed the bottom of the sandbed when you added more sand. De-nitrification occurs in the bottom part of the sand bed where there is a low oxygen atmosphere;  transferring the once - bottom part nearer to the top of the sandbed (a higher oxygen environment) increased the aerobic properties of the sand and probably killed off most of the denitrifying bacteria in that portion of sand.
 
If you had just added an additional layer of sand on top of your existing sandbed, you would have probably not registered any nO3 increase.
 
As far as the pH, I didn't see an Alk reading on your list. If the alk is way low then yes, that could affect the pH. The 500 ppm Ca is not disturbingly high; some SPS heavy tanks keep their Ca around that level.
 
If your Alk is low, then I would add some carbonate buffer to raise it. That may be enough to help raise the pH closer to where it used to be at. 10 dkH would be a good level; whatever your initial reading is, don't raise the alk by more than 1 dkH per day.
 
I would do a 10% WC once a week until the di-nitrfiying bacteria repopulate fully (maybe 3 -4 weeks) to help lower the nO3 (although 20 ppm is not that high at all). Try to have the change water at an alk of maybe 10 dkH and a Ca of around 400 ppm and pH around 8.2 - 8.4 to help reestablish the desired parameters.
 
 
- My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) -

* Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 *
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Mark Peterson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2010 at 11:42pm
Nitrates at 20 ppm are nothing. That is absolutely no concern. How are coral looking? My guess is that they are fine. Case dismissed.

But,
Bob said it, Alkalinity is missing in your test results. If you did not know it, Alkalinity is one of the four most important water parameters. As Santiago and Bob both indicated, the fact that Calcium is at 500 and pH is low is a sure indicator that Alkalinity is low. Check the Alkalinity ASAP. I'll bet it is below 8 dKH. That is too low. Low Alk is not an immediate problem but over the long term can be a real problem. I agree with Bob, it should be raised to about 10 dKH. It can be raised by 1 degree per day. If you need to know how to raise it, look a few posts down into the thread linked in my signature line.

Some sand may mix together, but most of the time different size sand particles separate into fairly distinct layers. The reason is because small particles fall down through the spaces between the larger particles. This is actually a good thing. Smaller particle sand offers more surface area for bacteria to populate, so it has more biofiltration capacity. As Bob said, it handles Nitrates very well. It will take about a week for the new sand to populate well enough to start making a difference. Your tank will be okay until then.

A last comment about the sand- If the sand was called "live" with "live bacteria cultures", that could also be a reason for the problem. Just so you know, the LS in your tank is more alive than that stuff. We often comment that a cup of LS from a tank like Bob's has more life in it than an entire bag of that "live" sand. New clean sand is a better thing to add than packaged LS. Don't get me wrong, I love CaribSea. I have spent time with the owner. But be careful that you find out the truth about which products are needed for each particular purpose.

So in summary, The water is not so bad and the sand will soon settle in and do it's job. You really have nothing to worry about.

BTW, water changes will not help here. Some would say that water changes cannot hurt. That is certainly true but why waste time on something that is not going to make any difference in the current situation.
To help understand this we need to look at the numbers. The Nitrates are at 20 ppm. A 15% water change will reduce Nitrates by only 3 ppm. Nitrates would then be at 17 ppm. From 20 to 17. Shocked That's it! That is truly insignificant. Seriously, the tank will not notice the difference.

Honestly, if the Nitrates were above 50, then is when I would worry.

If it was bad like that I would suggest this:
The best way to reduce all three N compounds quickly and continuously is with Algae. Algae is the answer. Algae eats Nitrogen compounds like crazy. Illuminated Macroalgae can reduce N by 25% in just a day and if lighted 24/7 can soon reach a point where it eats all the Nitrogen as fast as it is produced.

One more thing may be contributing to the low pH - Lack of gas exchange.
Gas exchange occurs at the water surface where CO2 leaves the water and Oxygen enters the water. If the water is not moving fast at the surface or if there is a glass cover over the tank the CO2 cannot leave. In other words the tank cannot breath and this creates a problem. So first, remove any glass that may be covering the top and second, be sure to have water being pushed from the bottom up to the top so that it roils. Here is a pic of roiling water.




Edited by Mark Peterson - July 16 2010 at 11:58pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chris Scott Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2010 at 2:01pm
Great info Bob and Mark!  I will go buy an Alkalinity test kit as soon as i can.

Yea I was confused about the sand.  I went to the aquarium and asked for dry non-live sand, but thats the bag they gave me.  Dumb me didn't read the bag closely!  Embarrassed

I believe as I add the next batch of the sand I will give it a good rinse first.

Thanks,
Chris
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2010 at 9:25am
Honestly, I really don't see a problem. You can use the rest of that sand.

Or you could give that sand to someone just starting a tank and come get some Oolitic sand from me. Oolitic stays on the bottom, underneath larger particle sand. Just 1/2 inch of Oolitic sand on the bottom does a fantastic job, more than doubling the biofiltration capacity of the existing sandbed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chris Scott Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 27 2010 at 9:56am
Just an update:

It was definitely the stirring of the sandbed that caused my nitrates to go higher and my ph to be low...or perhaps just a bad run of tests.

Within 1 week, the nitrates went back down to zero and ph went back up to 8.4.

I'm now adding a few pounds of the sand to the top of the sandbed in each area.  I went to home depot and got some 1.25" diameter clear plastic tubing and a large funnel and am using that to pour the sand down to the bottom.  It works amazing!  Although the guys at home depot thought I was making a beer bong!  LOL

It makes for very little disturbance and cloudyness, and I am able to pinpoint where I want the sand to go.

Thanks,
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