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0 tds but still phosphates?

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    Posted: December 18 2011 at 2:56am
Need some advice.....I've recently been dealing with a hair algae outbreak, which is something I've never had before, and it's frustrating! My phosphates constantly read 0.03 on my Hanna meter, dispute the use of a phosphate reactor running rowaphos.   I'm assuming phosphates are the cause. So after weeks of feeding light, cleaning out the tank, I finally decided to test my RO/DI water. The unit is only a few months old, it's a 5 stage from BRS. My TDS meter reads 0, but the phosphates are 0.03, same as my tank! Doesn't a tds of 0 usually mean 0 phosphates too? Like I said the unit is only a few months old so I know it's not my filters.

What are my options to get the phosphates in my RO/DI to read 0? Add a second DI resin chamber? I'm tired of burning through GFO! Thanks

Edited by kellerexpress - December 18 2011 at 2:58am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MadReefer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2011 at 8:28am
One of the meters needs to be calibrated. Or you need to take into account the error of the meter. But I would guess the phosphate meter needs to be checked. Have you seen phosphates rise and fall in the tank as you changed things, such as adding the phosphate reactor? Do you have a fuge?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2011 at 10:34am
I agree with MadReeer that you may be seeing the meters need for calibration, but consider this > All meters and test kits have ranges of deviation usually expressed as +/- a value. It may look like this "+/- .001 ppm" meaning that the reading will be off by as much as .001 ppm above, to .001 ppm below, the actual true value. In this case you are looking at two meters so the error is compounded. Also, the deviation is going to be more pronounced when trying to find values close to zero. That's just the physics and statistics of it.
Originally posted by kellerexpress kellerexpress wrote:

I've recently been dealing with a hair algae outbreak...  
I'm assuming phosphates are the cause.
From what you have told us, I believe the PO4 in your system is within acceptable limits. PO4 exists in all systems and is a very necessary component. The Zooxanthellae algae living in the coral tissue need PO4 to live. Without it they and their host coral die.

The key to keeping algae under control is a little complicated. As you may know, algae cleans the water, mostly by eating the polluting N and P compounds. In fact, everything in our aquarium is eating something.

If we want to stop an organism from growing we must look at where it's getting the energy to grow. You mentioned food and light. Unfortunately, it's often the nuisance algae that respond to light spectrum and that eat temporary extra food. Even something as unnoticeable as the accidental death of a strain of bacteria can lead to extra nutrients in the system. You seem to be on top of keeping extra nutrients from entering the system, so the next paragraph may hold a bigger part of the answer.

The other aspect of algae control is to remove it. Long ago I gave up trying to manually remove algae. That's no good for a lazy reefer like me. Embarrassed It's so much easier to stock the aquarium with the right herbivores. That is is how I killed the Ugly Green Haired Mermaid. Each herbivore has it's favorite algae. I've found that knowing which herbivore and how many to use to keep a specific algae under control is a very important bit of knowledge.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kellerexpress Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2011 at 1:13pm
Originally posted by MadReefer MadReefer wrote:

One of the meters needs to be calibrated. Or you need to take into account the error of the meter. But I would guess the phosphate meter needs to be checked. Have you seen phosphates rise and fall in the tank as you changed things, such as adding the phosphate reactor? Do you have a fuge?
 
Yes I have seen my phosphates levels rise and fall with changes I have made in the system, just cant seem to get them below 0.03. Anyone know who to calibrate a hanna meter?   I have verified my tds with 2 different meters, so I feel the tds reading is accurate. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kellerexpress Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2011 at 1:20pm

thanks for the reply.  I recently added more hermits to my tank, but they usually seem more interested in killing my snails, which is why I tend to stay away from them.  My t-5's are about 9 months old, do you think they could have shifted spectrum?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2011 at 11:13pm
In my experience, snails are the best, They eat algae only and don't kill anything. A pretty sure sign that there are too many Hermits is that they are eating snails. The other reason that snails become dinner is that they are dieing for some reason, typically associated with starvation due to lack of algae in the tank or the weakness that comes from a week without food during transport.

I recommend a proportion of 1:2 to 1:5 Hermits to Snails. Anytime I see a tuft of hair algae start to grow, I check the density of snails. If I don't have about 1 snail for every 1-2 gallons, I know it's time to add more. If there are plenty of snails, I check why that tuft started to grow and was ignored. I'll place snails right on the problem area and/or move things around to make that spot more accessible. A Coral too close upstream or an anemone in just the right place may keep snails from venturing into that spot.

FYI, In the wild in the surf zone or in tidal pools which is somewhat similar to our tanks environment, snails occur every 3-6 inches.


Edited by Mark Peterson - December 18 2011 at 11:20pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ryan Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 19 2011 at 10:03am
Originally posted by kellerexpress kellerexpress wrote:

thanks for the reply.  I recently added more hermits to my tank, but they usually seem more interested in killing my snails, which is why I tend to stay away from them.  My t-5's are about 9 months old, do you think they could have shifted spectrum?



What fan setting are you using on your Sunpower and what bulbs?

I would start replacing a couple of the blue bulbs right now and then change out a couple more bulbs in a month. Properly cooled T5s seem to last 10-12 months.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tanuki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 19 2011 at 10:12am
I am dealing with the same thing.

I did a big water change, cut feeding down to 1 day a week (though I have over fed a little this weekend out of paranoia that my new fish needed more food to help regain strength),  manually removed as much of the algae as I could, added 70 snails, and a Phosphate Sponge media bag, and finally, I cut my lighting way back.  I think my morning lights are on from 12-8, and the full spectrum lighting is on from 2-6pm is all. 

I have not noticed any real new growth, and the old algae has turned from green to brown.  It also disintegrates when I try to grab it rather than sticking together and being easily removed as it was before.

Anyway, as I am not totally out of the storm, my info may be worthless, but it seems to have helped so far.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kellerexpress Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 19 2011 at 11:59am
Originally posted by Ryan Thompson Ryan Thompson wrote:

Originally posted by kellerexpress kellerexpress wrote:

thanks for the reply.  I recently added more hermits to my tank, but they usually seem more interested in killing my snails, which is why I tend to stay away from them.  My t-5's are about 9 months old, do you think they could have shifted spectrum?



What fan setting are you using on your Sunpower and what bulbs?

I would start replacing a couple of the blue bulbs right now and then change out a couple more bulbs in a month. Properly cooled T5s seem to last 10-12 months.
 
Ive got the fan setting on 7.5 , and am currently running 4 ati blue + and 2 purple +
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ryan Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 19 2011 at 3:21pm
Originally posted by kellerexpress kellerexpress wrote:

Originally posted by Ryan Thompson Ryan Thompson wrote:

Originally posted by kellerexpress kellerexpress wrote:


thanks for the reply.  I recently added more hermits to my tank, but they usually seem more interested in killing my snails, which is why I tend to stay away from them.  My t-5's are about 9 months old, do you think they could have shifted spectrum?

What fan setting are you using on your Sunpower and what bulbs? I would start replacing a couple of the blue bulbs right now and then change out a couple more bulbs in a month. Properly cooled T5s seem to last 10-12 months.





 

Ive got the fan setting on 7.5 , and am currently running 4 ati blue + and 2 purple +


I doubt the bulbs are your issue but replacing the 2 oldest blue bulbs is still a good idea.

If you want to take a more direct approach, take the rock out and put hydrogen peroxide right on the hair algae. Then rinse in some water change water before returning to the tank. I did that for my tank and the hair algae is all gone and not coming back.

There is a great thread on nano reef about it all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kellerexpress Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 19 2011 at 3:53pm
full strength hydrogen peroxide or diluted?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 19 2011 at 5:45pm
Hydrogen Peroxide right out of the bottle.
Attention Lazy Reefers - do not try this at home.
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Ryan, please share with us all the other things you do to keep the algae from returning.


Edited by Mark Peterson - December 19 2011 at 5:46pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kellerexpress Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 19 2011 at 10:29pm
Im assuming I have to be careful to not get this stuff on corals right?  I really dont want to tear apart my tank unless I get desperate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 20 2011 at 6:55am
Hydrogen Peroxide will kill your coral as fast as it kills hair algae. BE CAREFUL if you decide to go that route.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ryan Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 20 2011 at 7:02am
Originally posted by jmw jmw wrote:

Hydrogen Peroxide will kill your coral as fast as it kills hair algae. BE CAREFUL if you decide to go that route.


This isn't true. I've soaked corals in hydrogen peroxide for about 5 minutes with little issue. It was a dilluted mix and things went just fine.

You just need to research what you are doing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ryan Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 20 2011 at 8:49am
Kevin,

Here is a really good link all about using hydrogen peroxide.


Justin Credabel also gave a great talk about using peroxide at the first MWRF. I have used peroxide on palys, zoanthids, acans and a couple other corals. I left the acans in for too long and they struggled a little bit but I didn't lose a single polyp when all was said and done.

I am currently dosing my tank with a VERY small amount of peroxide, maybe 2mL on a 24g tank. I was dosing every day but have cut back to every other day right now.

To answer Mark's question, I keep my nutrient import extremely limited and my nutrient export extremely high. I have no fish to pollute the water right now and I only feed some phyto once a week for the corals. I do a 20% water change once a week right now as well.

I have tried every type of snail and they all die within a month. Even when there was hair algae for them to eat they didn't touch it. I have found best success if I manually remove some hair algae so it is really short and then place a snail right on the problem patch. They tend to eat it at that point.

Another good option that I have used with success is an urchin. It went to town and mowed down all my hair algae in my second tank I had. Once the hair algae was gone and no sign of it coming back, I took the urchin back to the LFS and they sold it to someone else.

Kevin, have you thought about dosing a bacterial product at all? I had the least amount of algae problems when I employed that system.

Just my 2 cents.

PS - I wouldn't try peroxide next to any SPS, so in that sense JMW is right. I could see bad things happening to more sensitive corals.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kellerexpress Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 21 2011 at 4:31am
Thanks for the info. I've thought about trying carbon dosing, in fact I've got some ecobak pellets and a reactor sitting in my garage, I just need to get it hooked up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ryan Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 21 2011 at 6:56am
Originally posted by kellerexpress kellerexpress wrote:

Thanks for the info. I've thought about trying carbon dosing, in fact I've got some ecobak pellets and a reactor sitting in my garage, I just need to get it hooked up.

Yeah, I am not a fan of the pellets myself. I read a TON of negative reviews about them all over the place.
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