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Carotenoids and their roll in the aquarium.

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Pete Moss View Drop Down
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    Posted: March 09 2015 at 4:31pm
Didn't even know which section of the forum to put this in, but invertebrates utilize Carotenoids so here we go.

I wanted to start a discussion on Carotenoids and their roll in the reef as I have been studying them quite a bit lately.

Carotenoids are sometimes referred to as accessory pigments. They absorb energy from the sun, but cannot transfer it directly to corals ( or other invertebrates ) they have to transfer the energy first to Chlorophyll. Carotenoids are usually red, orange, or brown in pigment. They typically have absorption peaks in Amber light ( ~620nm ) and green light ( ~520nm ). They are present in the infamous Carrot! Giving it it's orange color. Guess what else it is heavily present in? Diatoms and brown species of algae. Ever heard that red light grows more algae? Bam, Carotenoids are why. They are much more present in algae species than corals.

HOWEVER. I got to thinking about Acans. Low light corals are often shielded from red and amber spectrum from spectral diffusion through the water ( the lower you go, the more blue it is ).

How many of you have purchased an Acan and had it turn orange or red instead of the brilliant array of colors it used to display? Are Carotenoids the reason behind it? Maybe moving the spectrum away from ambers and reds will resolve the issue? Is there a specific wavelength of red that promotes chlorophyll, yet is unusable for Carotenoids? Would stepping away from lower spectrum white bulbs, and supplementing high kelvin white with a higher wavelength red reduce algae and promote extra coral growth? Anyone have any experience they want to share? I'm knowledge hungry.

THIS is a fun read. We all know blue lights work, but I am more interested in the effects of red light here. Is anyone willing to put together and fund a test tank with me to observe differences in wavelength and Carotenoid reactions?

Edited by Pete Moss - March 09 2015 at 5:01pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2015 at 10:25am
We would be pleased to have you visit the farm so we could discuss this in detail. I've placed Acans back out of the sun because they do better there. Of course SPS, espcially Acropora, do awesome in the sunny places of the farm.

I've been thinking about that graph you showed in your meeting presentation. All the manufactured LED's lack the amber-orange-red spike that graph indicated as a second excitation/absorption band for both Chlorophylls.

This is of great interest to me because a friend that has been running MH - flourescent(15,000K with VHO and now t-5 with greater amber-red band emissions than most) for over 15 years is now ready to buy the AI Hydra 26. It emits barely any red. His 180 gal tank is gorgeous with many large colonies. It has a HUGE Euphyllia; a blue, wall hammer. We are concerned that it may decline under new LED lighting. See pic below.

Though I have continually stated that LED's are the future of aquarium lighting and having just added the first LED fixture to my coral farm, I'm still not pleased with it compared to the t-5 fixture over the adjacent tank.
 
This has been discussed here on the forum before, but not to the extent I would like, with the knowledge now available. Perhaps some of those here that have good experience with different lighting could also jump in.

Aloha,
Mark  Hug




Edited by Mark Peterson - March 10 2015 at 10:31am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pete Moss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2015 at 12:05pm
LEDs come in every color these days. Even Amber.

I have a couple of pendant orders that gave me a spectrograph to match, and we were able to design custom units that dial in on exactly what they needed for their corals/plants. If you want amber out of your LED systems, you can definitely get amber.

There is a lot that is unknown to us about lighting, it's exciting that we learn more and more every day.

I want to set up a test tank that has 6 separate chambers, all with a single color 10w chip over them. Red, Royal Blue, UV, 6500k, Amber, and Green. Chambers would be divided with black acrylic or plastic so there is no light bleed between the chambers. The test tank would also be plumbed into an existing cycled tank.

6 identical frags could then be placed in each chamber so growth, and coloration under each light could be studied.

It would be interesting to take various corals and study them under the chambers.

If you've got a few bucks lying around mark, and wouldn't mind plumbing it into your system, I think it'd be a fun project. We could go in on it together. It would definitely answer some questions about amber light and Carotenoids. It would also be a fun tank to have at the coral farm for demonstration and test purposes.

If you're not interested I'm going to talk Dennis into it. LOL


Edited by Pete Moss - March 10 2015 at 12:20pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ReefdUp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2015 at 12:57pm
That experiment has been conducted several times, but confirmation is the whole point of experimenting. Acans anecdotally lose color without the red portion of the spectrum, at least on the forums I frequent. In my grad research survey, the people who reported acan color loss were only running blues with some white. Same thing also happened to me.

Keep in mind that most corals are collected by free divers, and they usually stay in depths where the spectrum is still relatively full spectrum.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pete Moss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2015 at 2:13pm
I keep the amber and red portion of my wavelength at an extremely low level, I maintain colors well on all my acans. If I turn up my amber spectrum I get worse coloration. The exact opposite effect reported by your other sources. I'll have to post picture of my acans, they've been under my lights for a couple of months now.

I know the narrow band experiment has been conducted multiple times, I'm more interested in the narrow spectrum bands that weren't tested. Amber and UV in particular.

I know for a fact acans get pissed if they don't have near-UV, I can't get them to thrive under blues and whites alone either, but as soon as I added near-UV they took off.

And if a coral is orange or red, isn't it reflecting red light? Couldn't it be assumed that it is receiving an excess of that spectral band if it is casting it aside? A coral looking to absorb more red light wouldn't achieve much by morphing it's colors to red and orange.

I legitimately don't know, which is why I'm asking.



Edited by Pete Moss - March 10 2015 at 2:41pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ReefdUp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2015 at 8:14pm
Your experience is vastly different than what's being reported elsewhere. Acan bleaching from predominately blue lighting is a HUGE part of why full-spectrum LED fixtures exploded into the hobby. If you know of a different discussion, please point me to other threads where full-spectrum LEDs are bleaching acans.

There are tons of proteins (hundreds?) that reflect light (chromoproteins) or fluoresce (fluorescent pigments). Let's take ONE of those pigments, since you're interested in Acanthastrea particularly. Acans have chromoprotein CP-579.5, which absorbs around 580nm (yellow), and reflects as green. That same protein also absorbs below 350nm (which is well below what we're using for UV LEDs).

Unfortunately, I am going to table my discussion for another time/place. Just don't have the time to adequately devote to it. There's simply a TON of research to sift through.

With that nugget, I'll leave you to research, experiment, or whatever. If you have access to scholarly journals (PLoS ONE is free), you can find a lot.

Edited by ReefdUp - March 10 2015 at 8:15pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Peterson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2015 at 9:13am
Cool, Cool, Cool. Thanks for the info and discussion. It blew me away when, many years ago, Adam Blundell spoke to us about coral that absorb one color and fluoresce another color. I hope he jumps in here to add a few "nuggets" of his own. Lighting for coral is one of the things that the hobby and science really don't yet know enough about.

If we tried to run that UV, Amber, etc. experiment in my farm, it would be extremely difficult to keep it from being contaminated by sunlight. Sorry.

Aloha,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pete Moss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2015 at 9:24am
Florescent proteins are a whole different ball game from Carotenoids. We have barely even started to identify the florescent proteins found in corals. Small scratch on the surface. At the end of the day, every single coral species has a distinct makeup with a specific spectral range it prefers. We just try and pick the best lights to generally make them all happy.

If you're bailing on the test tank it's time to call in the big guns.

DENNIS!

Edited by Pete Moss - March 11 2015 at 9:29am
125g 90g 2x33g 34g
What stores do I recommend?
Up North: Bill ( Saltwater Paradise 801-317-8115 )
Down South: Jerry ( Reef On 801-563-0600 )

Member of GCFB
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