Well since water is basically free, why even chance using old water from another tank???  I don't want to say it is good or bad, but it sure is easy to dump it out and start over so why not play it safe and do that? 

Adam

Ro is $0.25 per gallon at Aquatic Dreams. I believe that it's their price for premixed too, but I can't remember. I would say that it's wise to dump it, but there are alot of things to take into consideration. How has the water been treated? Were there any diseased fish? How clean is the water, I.E. water changes. But for 50 gallons after substrate and rock (real conservative guess) it would cost you... times .25... carry the 2.... divided by Pi...  $12.50.

Now, you can also ask your LFS to give you some water out of their tank to speed up the cycle process. If they are good folk and you trust their tanks, they'll do it. Another way to do it is to get someone that has a marine setup to do a water change and use their effluent. Also, you can get some sand from other people's tanks that is "seeded", meaning that it has all sorts of necessary goodies in it. All of this will expedite your process.

Good luck to you. I think that most here would agree that the marine aquarium hobby is alot more interesting than fresh. Alot more challenging too. Have some fun!

Most established freshwater tanks have high nitrates (over 100, depending on husbandry over 200 ppm).  Why would you want to start your marine tank with that much nitrate?  The nitrosoma/nitrobacter bacteria might be different strains, but nitrate is nitrate whether it's floating around in fresh water or salt water.  I'd change it out.  RO is best but tap water is fine too for the initial charge.  I'd strongly suggest using RO water for all make-up water afterwards.

There is lots of bacteria in the water, not just in the sand and rock. 

Water is free, many people are using tap water, and even if you paid $25 per gallon for water, 50 gallons is under $15.  That is free when talking about the marine hobby. 

But why even consider using the freshwater???? Where does that idea even come up as a good idea?

Adam

There is lots of bacteria in the water, not just in the sand and rock. 

Adam, do you have a link or something for me read?  I am curious about the bacteria free-floating.  Again, possibly I have learned from the wrong source.

"Don't be alarmed if during the next 24 hours the water turns a "milky white". This is caused by free floating bacteria that will eventually make its home in the gravel and filter system(s), and should clear up within 2 to 3 days."
That is a a quote from http://members.tripod.com/~lisajh62/SettingUp.html - http://members.tripod.com/~lisajh62/SettingUp.html

That implies that the nitrifying bacteria is only free-floating if your water is cloudy.

"Now that the ammonia has given birth to nitrite, the nitrite in turn give birth to the third and final nitrifying bacteria, nitrobacters. These bacteria are living entities that require oxygen and food (an ammonia source) to survive, grow on the surfaces of everything in the tank, and the waste from nitrobacter are shown in the form of nitrate with a test kit." is a quote from http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/bionitrogencycle/a/aa073199_2.htm - http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/bionitrogencycle/a/aa073199 _2.htm

The phrase is bold says that the bacteria has to grow on a surface.

The nitrosoma/nitrobacter bacteria might be different strains, but nitrate is nitrate whether it's floating around in fresh water or salt water.  - from Jfinch

The last phrase of the second quote, "the waste from nitrobacter are shown in the form of nitrate," confirms what Jon said about there being nitrate in any water, but not the bacteria itself.

Crazy, my thought process behind using water from an established tank does not focus on a specific strain of bacteria. In a water column, there may be many different strains of bacteria found. Some will attach to a substrate when they find a food source using their cilia. Cilia are complex appendages, sometimes longer than the bacteria, that permit motion. In most of our tanks, they will tend to ride the current and then propel themselves to a food source. Also, cilia are formations present on some bacteria, especially Gram Negatives, that permit adhesion.

Something to remember is that bacteria ia not affected by gravity in a flowing body of water. They tend to suspend and multiply. Now, when a particle of whatever they are feeding on drops out or settles out of the free flowing water column, so do they. From there, they can then spread to other food sources within the substrate. Think of it this way, have you ever heard of people getting sick from swimming or bathing in a pond, lake or even a pool? I have, it happens all too often. Generally, it is due to a high bacterial count in the water column. It will be in the substrate as well, but most people don't get sand in their nose or ears or down their gullet. It's in the water.

Now also consider that bacteria will generally multiply every 15-30 minutes. You start out with one cell and in 18 hours, you have millions from that one cell. To me, if it is from a tank of someone that I trust with water quality, I want whatever good bacteria is suspended in their water as well as what is in their sand. I won't go into the MANY forms of bacteria, other organisms, beneficial minerals, etc that are generally present in an established, healthy tank.

Class is over for now. Sorry if I bored you, but you asked!

Carl, you have not bored me at all.  I enjoy learning and reading your quality of writing.  What you said makes sense, it just doesn't go along with what I have read and what I have posted from sources on the internet.  I'm not saying that the internet is the bible or anything, but do you have a source where you learned this that I may read?  Thanks!!

Well, I am sure that I can find referencing sources on the web but I can find contradictory as well. I am just utilizing my experience and training with biologicals in industry. I also try to use common sence. As viruses can pass through contact with surfaces, it can also be atomized and airborne. Well, bacteria mobilize the same way in fluid. Just do a search regarding bacteria and how it moves around. I am glad that you don't read everything that you read.

Thanks for the comment on my writing. I guess that the schooling has paid off.

I am glad that you don't read everything that you read.
Huh?

I guess to sum it up, from everyone's posts.  There is some bacteria that is floating trying to find a home on a surface.  The majority of it is surface based, though.  Therefore, the main concern of this thread was whether or not to use existing fresh-water and convert it to salt-water.  I would not do it.  I think it would work, but more than that, there is no need.  Most fresh water tanks have lava rock and other items that may introduce metals into the water.  Plus, as Jon said, the water will have nitrate in it.  It seems to me, that the existing water would be the same as tap water.  Some people have used tap water with great success, like Mark.  The other concern that Carl brought up is using water from existing salt water tanks to help "kick-start" your own tank.  As we have discussed, there is some nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria floating, so you will get that.  But you will also get ammonia & nitrate, which shouldn't hurt anything since the tank you are starting is a new one.  I now think that it may help a little, but not much (again, just my opinion).  I think a better way to do it would be to get some sand from an established tank, as Mark gives out, to get your bacteria.  That way, you also have the possibility of getting some pods.  Thanks guys (and Suzy), I hope connien got as much from this as I did, since it was his thread.

Suzy, who knows? It's an opinion and until someone performs a test on aquarium water in a like tank and finds factual bad elements or contaminants, maybe their advice is sound? After all, it is water. Water can be conditioned, highly filtered, etc and would be suitable to drink. Personally, I have consumed water from a stagnant swamp in Africa and survived. Of course, it was through a portable RO filter straw, but I think that you get the idea. I don't think that the "dealer" should be torn apart because we have a difference of opinion.

Just my $2.

Suzy, I must have misunderstood your intentions. My apologies. And I didn't mean to imply that you were tearing or would tear them apart. I just thought that if the individual or LFS name were posted that it would give the opportunity for some sort of open targeted bashing. That's all....

Still love me?

crazy-sps wrote: There is lots of bacteria in the water, not just in the sand and rock.  Adam, do you have a link or something for me read?  I am curious about the bacteria free-floating.  Again, possibly I have learned from the wrong source.

You have definately learned from the wrong source.  But don't worry, it is something that everyone is confused on.  I don't want to sound like I know everything, because this isn't my specialty but I'll try. 

There is a TON of bacteria in the water column.  Around 1x10^6 bacteria per mililiter.  In my mind that is an astounding number.  Now the substrate WATER (NOT THE SUBSTRATE ITSELF) contains around 10x more than that.  Yes, I know that will cause some discussion but water in the substrate may be more important than substrate size. 

However..... I didn't say that this bacteria is the denitrifying bacteria.  Although I am saying it now, there is the bacteria for all stages of nitrification in the water column.  In other words, without live sand, or live rock, you can cycle an aquarium just by using water from other tanks.  My tank contains about 50% water from Steve Lopez, I figured that was good enough to get my tank going. 

So, there is a ton of bacteria in the water (in my mind) but most of the "filtration" bacteria is certainly in the water around the substrate. 

Hope this clarify things, sorry if I didn't explain that well before.

Adam

Adam Blundell wrote: [QUOTE=crazy-sps] So, there is a ton of bacteria in the water (in my mind)

Adam, you might want to see a doctor about that! Water in your brain... not good my friend.

Adam Blundell wrote: So, there is a ton of bacteria in the water (in my mind) but most of the "filtration" bacteria is certainly in the water around the substrate.

Adam, you still say the bacteria is in the water around the substrate (I say it's on the substrate... but I may have been sleeping in my biology class).  What is it about the water around the substrate that makes it a home for filtration strains of bacteria?  I agree fully that there are bacteria floating around in the water but even though 10^6 is a big number, it seem logical to assume that that is not enough to provide nitrification in a typical tank.  This is why we have bacterial filters.  All bacterial filters consist of lots and lots of surface area (wet/dry, fluidized bed, ect).  Isn't that surface there for the bacteria to colonize?  Are we back to the dolphin discussion yet?  Will this be covered in class on Thursday?

Marcus,

If I may, one of the reasons that bacteria may proliferate in substrate is due to the mass of decomposing waste that will settle out. A bacterial strain wil proliferate based greatly upon conditions. If there is an abundant food supply, the strain may increase more rapidly or rather the die-off will not be as great, therefore the cell count is greater.

Something to recognize, and I think that it is something that has not been nailed to the floor thus far, is that the denitrifying bacteria are not the only strain that you have or want or NEED in your ecosystem. There are many, many other forms of bacteria present all playing a vital role in the success of your ecosystem. To say that lithotrophic bacteria are ONLY found on substrate or attached to a clean, hard surface is a strong generalization. What do they consider a clean, hard surface? Can a grain of sand fit the bill? What about LR?

Recognize as well, that there are suspended organic solids in the water column. Much of these solids will remain in suspension, and if you have organics, you have bacteria. Period. Hence, the amount of bacteria "floating" around in the water column feeding on these organics is astounding.

Recognize as well that you may have a strain that feeds on something else in your system. There are bacteria strains that can consume just about anything including petroleum products. (Yes, Jon... I can put you out of business).

What Adam is saying in his last post is absolutely true, there is a ton of bacteria in the water, denitrifying and otherwise, As an example... does fish urine settle into the substrate? How then is it broken down and ammonia released? That ammonia then, where does it go? It's not a solid, so it won't settle. Just something to make you say, HHhmmmmm

Marcus, welcome back,

Okay so my conclusion on this.  First of all Marcus, Jon, and Carl you guys are all great!  Yes Carl even you .  They way I see it you are all making good points.  I'll do my best once again to give input, but this really isn't my field.  Marcus- I don't have a link off the top of my head, but trust me there is a ton of bacteria in the water and it does contain nitrifying bacteria.  I've read this and worked with people who study it.  However, Jon, the majority of the bacteria involved in the nitrifying process are in the substrate area.  Not all of that bacteria is attached to the surface of substrate but it is actually in the water down there in the sand (this is new research as of last year).  Because of this the idea of smaller particle size for the sand is now being disputed, and is the reason I don't support it.  The actual bacteria count appears to be the same REGARDLESS of the substrate size.  Picture this... in you sand you have tons of bacteria growing on the surface area of a piece of sand.  The bacteria grow and reproduce so much, that they can't all fit in on sand.  So they just start "hanging out" in those little teany water pockets.  Now if you stir up your sand you will get an ammonia spike.  Why?  Not because of the bacteria on the substrate, they won't do anything, but because of those little free floating bacteria which are now released into the water.  Many of them will die soon because they can't live in oxygenated water. 

So as Carl said, there are lots of good bacteria.  And there are lots of denitryfing bacteria.  Most of our filtration bacteria is in the sand, no doubt, but it is also everywhere in the tank.

I hope this makes sense.

Adam 

Adam, thank you for the the clarification.  This is an interesting topic that I'll have to stew over for a while... you've peaked my interest.

Carl, keep those little bugs away from my oil!   Seriously, you're absolutely right.  There is a strain of bacteria that thrive in diesel fuel!  But ve ave our vays to eliminate sem, don't ve?

These things I agree with:

1. A lot of bacteria is found free floating in the water, but not even close to what is found on the surfaces in your aquarium (glass, substrate, filter pads, etc.)
2. Nitrification happens in the water column, but to a minor degreee compared to the nitrification happening in the substrate, filters, etc.

Thing I DISagree with:

1. Now the substrate WATER (NOT THE SUBSTRATE ITSELF) contains around 10x more than that.
• I disagree.  The majority of the bacteria found in the substrate is attached to the substrate not free floating in the water around the substrate.
• The number of organisms that can be maintained in a marine tank is usually proportional to the amount of surface area on the gravel of the aquarium available for the Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter bacteria to attach to (Marietta College, Water Science and Technology Volume 2002)
  
2. The actual bacteria count appears to be the same REGARDLESS of the substrate size. 
• If bacteria is more numerous on surface areas compared to free floating.  The more surface area provided for the bacteria the more bacteria you will have.  In other words the smaller the substrate grain size, the more surface area, the more bacteria.

My $0.02

UPDATE,

Here are the bacteria numbers, I was off but look how close I guessed before! 

Bacteria in the Water Column 5x10^5 per mL

Bacteria in Substrate 1x10^9 per gram substrate

Hope this helps, or atleast causes more debating..... just kidding.

Adam
ps- info from Scripps Coral Pathology Department

Adam,  do you know if that's bacteria ON the substrate or is that from a water sample drawn from within the substrate?

2000 times more is significant, isn't it? 

jfinch wrote: Adam,  do you know if that's bacteria ON the substrate or is that from a water sample drawn from within the substrate? 2000 times more is significant, isn't it?

I missed the post from you Jon, sorry, just seeing it now.  First--- Marcus that was a great email you sent and a great response as well. 
Jon- it use to be assumed that when you took water from the substrate you were removing the bacteria that were growing on the surface of the substrate and that was being pulled from the substrate and sucked up into the pipette. 
Now, however, it appears (but is still shaky) that the bacteria is actually in that high concentration at all times in the water down there in the substrate.  This makes sense to me, so I don't see reason to think otherwise.  Basically, this theory is that the water down there is just really thick with bacteria. 

Adam

Marcus wrote: Adam, thanks!! This new information that you are writing about, is it from a new study? Do you think its possible for the rest of us to read it?

Yeah they are new studies, a couple from last year.  I don't think there is any online form of it, but I'll check.  I only know this stuff because one of my colleauges is a researcher who is studying this.  I just check with him when I have questions. 
I'm going to see if I can get an online view, or maybe a pdf file of the articles.  Unfortunately, it isn't overwhelming evidence either way.

Adam

Adam,  I can see how it might be difficult task to determine if the bacteria are are in the intersticial water or on the surface.  How the sampling is done would be the crux of the problem.  I'm open to thoughts different then mine and would probably enjoy reading any recent studies regarding this issue.

But, to me it only makes sense that the bacteria are on the surface.  How do you explain the effectiveness of a wet/dry where the water velocity is very high and change over of water is great.  The bacteria there have to be on the surface not in the water.

jfinch wrote: But, to me it only makes sense that the bacteria are on the surface.  How do you explain the effectiveness of a wet/dry where the water velocity is very high and change over of water is great.  The bacteria there have to be on the surface not in the water.

Yeah that is a good question.  I for one am not sure, but want to say that is the reason they are NOT that effective.  Now that is debatable as well, but my understanding is that what wet/drys do well is that they remove the organics (which get caught in the balls) and don't allow them to pass on to the rest of the system.  The actual breakdown process hasn't been proven to me. 
Also, I do agree bacteria are on the surface in all of these examples (wetdry, substrate, sponges, filter floss, ....) I just also believe the bacteria is ALSO high in the dead water spaces that accompany them.  So that is why I believe filter pads were so well, all that surface area, and all those little pockets of bacteria water.
Once again, me feelings why you can squeeze your filter pads into someone elses tank and quickly jump start their tank... all that water that you squeeze out is bacteria water.

I could be wrong, but this view point just makes too much sense to me to ignore it.

Adam

Marcus wrote: As far as squeezing a filter pad into someone else's tank and jump starting their tank, isn't that due to the waste from the pad giving the small amount of bacteria in the new tank sometime to "eat", thus letting it start to multiply?

No I don't believe so.  If we add waste to a new tank it causes problems. But water from a filter or sponge, or sock, or whatever (to me) is a good thing because it introduces all that bacteria.  I don't think we usually need to add food for the bacteria. 
However, you guys could argue against me that the when squeezing the sponge water out, you are actually squeezing out the bacteria that were growing on the surface areas of that sponge.  I think that is what Jake would argue, and that is a very good arguement.  That indeed may be what is happening and most people would agree with Jake on that. 

Adam

Mark Peterson wrote: Anywhere that nutrients are, you'll find bacteria. Nutrients are high in organic matter that's caught in filter media.

I agree.  So let me ask you this.  Are there bacteria in the filter media, that are not growing on the surface of the filter media?  Instead they are growing on the organic matter trapped there?  It sounds like that is what you are saying.

Adam

I see it, but Mark doesn't.  Mark, do you know what I see?  I see us actually agreeing on this but you don't know it yet.  So that we don't have to type four more pages of posts, I'll speed up the conversation here, and you tell me where I go wrong...

Adam- So Mark you agree that some bacteria can just live in the water column, like your friend who cultures them said?
Mark- Yes Adam I do
Adam- so would you believe that sometimes the bacteria are outgroing the surface area of a filter pad and are actually growing on the food particles trapped in the pad?
Mark- yes that makes sense, they would grow there because there is food there.
Adam- So wouldn't it be safe to assume that bacteria would grow in the water pockets of the substrate, growing on the food particles there?
Mark- yep that makes sense.
Adam- So isn't it possible that larger substrate size may be better than smaller substrate size because it allows food particles to "fall through" better and end up lower in the substrate where bacteria can more easily grow and remove them?
Mark- Adam are you suggesting that larger substrate may really be better than smaller sizes?
Adam- Well wouldn't you agree that substrate size can be too small, I mean mud is very fine, but it doesn't allow anything to grow or move around in it because it is too small and dense. Therefore it doesn't have nearly the filtration abilities of the other substrates.
Mark- Yes Mud is too fine, but oolitic is perfect sized.  Of course oolitic with a layer of larger particles on top.
---Jake interjects--- Hold on Adam is full of "Crazy Talk" don't listen to Adam tell you about the bacteria in the water around the substrate, all that matters is substrate surface area.
Mark- Well, maybe Adam is right.  Just maybe larger particles allow food and detritis to settle further in the sand bed, and allows more bacteria to quickly consume it. 

Okay now somewhere in this conversation I must have made a mistake.  So tell me where this conversation would have taken a different course from the one I just told.

Thanks

Adam

Aahhhh, the mystery of bacteria. Don't you love it? I am not going to try and be the "expert" on this subject matter, but this tennis match is making me dizzy. I think that the point of "where do bacteria reside" has been overlooked again. I personally work with bacteria that resides in the water column. The bacteria that I work with may or may not be considered as "nitrifying" or "denitrifying". Either way, there is no substrate that our targeted bacteria require. However, something that must be said is that, and it has been touched on, if there is food present there is also bacteria present. I do not care how far down the food is in the substrate, if there is something to eat, there are bugs that will go after it and eat it! Also, bugs can spend their entire existance suspended in a water column. All sorts of bacteria too! I have never met a bug that would immediately sink in slightly moving water.

Additionally, adding water, sand, mud, filter squeezings, etc. to a new tank is a kick start to the bacterial population. It does two things, 1) it adds food for bacteria to consume and 2) there is already bacteria on that food who will also begin reproducing in the new tank. Those younguns will then begin to seek out food of their own if they can't belly up to the buffet. If there is no food present, the strain will begin to die off. And MARCUS, you don't need to see the food in/on the bioballs or whetever for it to be there. Trust me, it's there.

Summary: BUGS ARE EVERYWHERE! In your sand (not just the first 2 inches either), in the water, in the rock, on your fish, in your mouth, on your hands, in the air... I think I need to go shower now. I feel yucky...