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Poormans Wavemaker

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URL: http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=21646
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Topic: Poormans Wavemaker
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Subject: Poormans Wavemaker
Date Posted: November 06 2007 at 10:15am
It doesn't really make waves, it changes the direction of the current. It works best in a smaller tank, like 100 gal or less. The Maxijet powerhead can be switched on and off without causing damage.
 
Jon Finch showed me this many years ago. Simply cut off the nozzle and plug it into a timer. The cool thing is that almost every time it restarts, the impeller will spin the opposite direction. A clockwise spin causes water to shoot off to the right and a counterclockwise spin sends water ~90 degrees to the left. It's a strong stream that changes the flow in the tank. I have it run for 6 hours then turn off for 15 minutes then back on. A 6 hour cycle changes the flow 4 times/day just like the tides and causes everything to grow better.Big%20smile
 
 

<Edit>
Not sure if I explained this, but this device causes the water to flow in alternating directions so that detritus cannot settle in any one spot for long. Smile
Another thing I do that I believe assists this effect is to place the large rock up off the sand. The resulting flow over the Oolitic Sand seems to enhance Alk and Ca levels too.
Crushed coral sand had to be placed in some areas to keep the Oolitic from blowing away. I just took some pics that I will post ASAP.Smile
This tank has 2 strong powerheads that cannot be seen. They are on continuously, pushing water from each bottom back corner so that it "boils" in the top center. The two streams not only move water from bottom to top, but they send turbulent swirling water down the front center of the tank creating various vortices. These changing vortices seem to also influence water flow in other parts of the tank as the swirls wiggle from side to side.Big smile
 


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Replies:
Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: November 06 2007 at 11:10am
This reminds me... there is a well known speaker advocating a system of unidirectional flow.  He really feels like you should junk your random flow systems and just push all the water one way for an hour.  Then push it all back the other way for an hour.
 
Very compelling arguements, and I certainly see his reasoning.
 
Adam


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Come to a meeting, they�re fun!


Posted By: jfinch
Date Posted: November 06 2007 at 11:50am
I know it's probably hearsay, but I don't think direction really matters all that much.  Just keep the water moving and your coral will be fine.  Random water movement benefits the eyes looking into the tank more then the tank itself.

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Jon

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6y_EzjI_ljbIwf2n5uNzTw" rel="nofollow - What I've been doing...



Posted By: jeffras
Date Posted: November 06 2007 at 1:29pm
I agree with Jon, Maybe it is because I have never heard any compelling arguments to run a wavemaker or seen any problems with my non-wavemaker setup. I have never heard anyone say "Get a wavemaker to fix problem X".

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Jeff Rasmussen



Posted By: chris.rogers
Date Posted: November 06 2007 at 4:08pm
So, would a larger impeller push more water or does a faster moving impeller push more water?  Is it possible to maxi-jet mod this somehow, but with a large impeller rather than a boat propeller?




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Ils sont fous, ces Romains!


Posted By: reptoreef
Date Posted: November 06 2007 at 4:52pm
There are more mods to increase flow with this design... drill small holes in the bottom of the shroud circulare to the intake screen... that will increase flow in and therefore will increase the outflow. Another mod would be a larger prop with more fins. 

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www.captivereefing.com


Posted By: ewaldsreef
Date Posted: November 06 2007 at 5:22pm
I first saw this at Marks house. I use it with 2 1200 maxi jets on one of my frag tanks and it works really well. With the two pumps it makes the current that much more random.

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Contact me for professional aquarium maintenance and localy grown coral frags. [URL=http://www.aquatitranquility.com][/URL]



Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: November 06 2007 at 8:00pm
Originally posted by jeffras jeffras wrote:

I agree with Jon, Maybe it is because I have never heard any compelling arguments to run a wavemaker or seen any problems with my non-wavemaker setup. I have never heard anyone say "Get a wavemaker to fix problem X".
 
Really?  I think Lee Goldman has done a great job, and just about everybody is ga-ga over Jake Adams...
 
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/6/aafeature2/ - http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/6/aafeature2/
 
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/8/aafeature/ - http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/8/aafeature/
 
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/9/aafeature2 - http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/9/aafeature2
 
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/11/aafeature/ - http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/11/aafeature/
 
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/1/aafeature/ - http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/1/aafeature/
 
Adam


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Come to a meeting, they�re fun!


Posted By: jeffras
Date Posted: November 06 2007 at 9:11pm
So, Out of all of those articles there is very little mention of wavemakers. And once he starts talking about wavemakers he points out how they are poorly designed? He takes it one step in the opposite direction of wavemakers when he talks about the gyre. How can you obtain that type of water movement with a wave maker?

A google search for "Lee Goldman" wavemaker pulls no hits so I have not seen any of his research.

I am still not convinced.  (I am not saying that flow is not important, just that IMO the benefit of a wavemaker is not worth the money)

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Jeff Rasmussen



Posted By: ewaldsreef
Date Posted: November 06 2007 at 9:31pm
Just from personal experance I am convinced that random current is benificial. I have noticed a big differance in color and growth. I do agree that more importand then random current is enough current itself. Without proper water flow corals just don't do as well.

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Contact me for professional aquarium maintenance and localy grown coral frags. [URL=http://www.aquatitranquility.com][/URL]



Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: November 06 2007 at 10:21pm
Jeff-
Exactly!  Both these guys are against wavemakers.  They are more on the lines of pushing all the water one way.  Not the common hobbyist method of chaos and random movement.  Both would prefer you simply move all the water along.
Only thing better than that is moving all the water along... and then moving it all back.
 
Adam


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Come to a meeting, they�re fun!


Posted By: Cody Pearce
Date Posted: November 06 2007 at 10:54pm

So then they think something like a wavebox is the best thing?



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90 gallon mixed reef
My fish swim naked.


Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: November 07 2007 at 8:13am

"Poormans Gyre Changer"Wink "Maxijet Current Oscillator" Ermm

I don't know what to call it, but I know it made a difference in my little frag tank and now in my new 55 at a fraction of the cost of the commercially produced wave equipment. Another coral grower, Bruce Ewald, has now added his endorsement.Thumbs%20Up
 
We aren't on the lecture circuit and we don't publish papers but each of us ordinary hobbyists finds simple ways to improve our little part of the Ocean, the "Interconnected Reef", as LeRoy Headlee ( http://www.garf.org - www.garf.org ) calls it. Keep up the good work everyone.Clap


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Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks:
www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244
Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member


Posted By: Corey Price
Date Posted: November 07 2007 at 8:40am
I love the gyre idea.  I'm considering that in combination with a low-velocity powerhead such as a Vortech.


Posted By: jfinch
Date Posted: November 07 2007 at 9:58am

Great articles Adam.  I like his methods and reasoning.  He'd be a good speaker for a club meeting.



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Jon

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6y_EzjI_ljbIwf2n5uNzTw" rel="nofollow - What I've been doing...



Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: November 07 2007 at 10:30am
Originally posted by jfinch jfinch wrote:

He'd be a good speaker for a club meeting.

 
Wink
Adam


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Come to a meeting, they�re fun!


Posted By: Jhamb
Date Posted: November 07 2007 at 11:26am
Ok I just got done reading the first article in those links that Adam posted and it got me thinking. Now since there are corals that enjoy and seem to better thrive in lower flow enviroments does this mean that the coral such as mushrooms naturally have a lower concentration of substances there for needing a higer concentration of substances in the water? which if i am understanding it correctly would occur in a lower flow enviroment. 


Which would make other corals such as SPS have naturally a higher concentration of substances needing more flow to better exchange the rate of substances because higher flow=lower substances and lower substances= better rate of exchange in higher concentration of substance corals because if the water around the coral has slow moving higher concentrations that makes the exchange more difficult for higher CS corals

Does this sound right or make any sense to anyone?


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Jeremy

40B INW

USAF


Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: November 07 2007 at 11:40am

In my mind, here is why water flow is important.

Fish swim to get food, corals can't.  Therefore the food has to come to them.
 
Now there a host of other reasons why others argue for important flow but they typically receive much less attention...
1) gas exchange
2) heat removal
3) spawning
4) distribution of light over the tissue
5) removal of mucous
6) etc....
 
Adam


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Come to a meeting, they�re fun!


Posted By: Jhamb
Date Posted: November 07 2007 at 11:44am
Yeah but it basically boils down to all of those mentioned above which would occur better in higher flow conditions.

But my question is that for some of the corals that need slower flow and seem to thrive better why and how do they do it?


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Jeremy

40B INW

USAF


Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: November 07 2007 at 11:54am
Well take a mushroom for example.  (Although not technically a coral it works in this example)
 
It is flat.  Therefore it catches food that falls on it... not food that blows by it.  So it needs slow flow for food to fall on it and remain their long enough to be collected and ingested.
So if in deep water away from fast currents, it probably receives less light.  Therefore it doesn't overheat tissue in doesn't need to rid that energy.  Plus, it would have to adapt to lower light levels for photosynthesis (more accurately it would have to adapt to the repercussions of zooxanthellae photosynthesis).
Many acros catch food flying by them.  Sometimes the flow is so high the polyp can't face forward but instead is pushed back by the current.  These polyps grab food "backhanded" as the plankton swirls by them.  They also have small polyps to avoid getting torn apart by hight flow.  They also form mucous nets to protect them at low tide when they are out of the water... but then they need high flow to blow off those nets.
 
Unfortunately with all the varieties of corals and invertebrates out there, I can't pin down what I think is best for water flow.  I changed my mind every few months on this.  Currently, I think pushing all the water one way for a time (30 seconds to 4 hours) and then pushing it all back the other way is best.
 
Adam


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Come to a meeting, they�re fun!


Posted By: Jhamb
Date Posted: November 07 2007 at 12:06pm
Ok i think i better understand what you are explaing

I can see the reasoning behind the flow changing directions. 


   In the second article is says "An older study by Dr. David Bottjer" basically describes how A. cervicornis colonies where growing away from the main direction of flow in higher flow envroments and they grow bigger and less dense in lower flow enviroments. does this mean that we can manipulate the growth of corals in our aquariums just bast on water flow or do you think it needs to be more large scale situation such as an ocean?

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Jeremy

40B INW

USAF


Posted By: Mike Savage
Date Posted: November 07 2007 at 12:20pm
Originally posted by jfinch jfinch wrote:

Great articles Adam.  I like his methods and reasoning.  He'd be a good speaker for a club meeting.

 
I agree. Great articles and could be a good speaker! Thanks for posting those links.
 
Mike


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Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: November 07 2007 at 12:31pm
You can certainly change the growth of your coral by the type of water motion!  Let me find the link when I get home today...
 
Adam


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Come to a meeting, they�re fun!


Posted By: jeffras
Date Posted: November 07 2007 at 12:31pm
Originally posted by Adam Blundell Adam Blundell wrote:

Currently, I think pushing all the water one way for a time (30 seconds to 4 hours) and then pushing it all back the other way is best.
 
Adam


Hmm, I tend to think that the only way that this would be the best flow would be in the gyre system (which is set up to have very little resistance/obstruction and aims to produce a laminar flow) so if you toss all your live rock out and then create the baffle then this would make sense to me. If there is rock work then I would say the best flow is the most flow possible (which goes back to random flow). I really liked the data that riddle did with the flow meter. If you think about flow in the terms of those docs (flow, distance, and obstruction) and not gph I bet most people have too little flow.


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Jeff Rasmussen



Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: November 07 2007 at 12:57pm
Originally posted by Mike Savage Mike Savage wrote:

Originally posted by jfinch jfinch wrote:

Great articles Adam.  I like his methods and reasoning.  He'd be a good speaker for a club meeting.

 
I agree. Great articles and could be a good speaker! Thanks for posting those links.
 
Mike
 
Now just imagine how great it would be if someone making these suggestions was on the presidency.  They'd probably get to choose what month we bring in the speaker, and they'd probably get to spend the whole day with the speaker.
 
Just imagine how great that would be!
 
Adam


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Come to a meeting, they�re fun!


Posted By: Mike Savage
Date Posted: November 07 2007 at 1:23pm
Thumbs%20Up

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Posted By: Jhamb
Date Posted: November 07 2007 at 1:47pm
Ok so let me know if I am getting this right.  I increase the flow in my aquarium and my frogspawn my not "look" like it is enjoying the increased flow because the polyps are not "fully" extended.  But in reality it is much happier due to the increase of flow so that it can do what it needs to do as far as gas exchange, photoinhibition, photosynthesis, respiration, etc.

Am I right?


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Jeremy

40B INW

USAF


Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: November 07 2007 at 1:51pm
Maybe.
It sure does help with those other items... but then again you may just be beating up the frogspawn.  With enough flow it will certainly tear apart.
 
Adam
ps- I've seen frogspawn grow in no flow


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Come to a meeting, they�re fun!


Posted By: Jhamb
Date Posted: November 07 2007 at 3:44pm
Well with everything said...I dont necessarily think that more flow is better. Maybe under certain circumstances such as tanks filled with alot of sps or tanks that have alot of obstructions but tanks with alot of LPS or tanks with alot of softies should not have alot of flow, enough flow is exactly that enough flow.

As far as making waves goes I really think that it can be very benificial to LPS and softies but not at all to SPS from the articles I have read today it sounds to me that in almost every experiment the SPS has always used morphology to make the conditions right for water flow. I dont think that LPS and softies really have the ability to use morphology to condition the flow to be "just right" there for making waves more benifical.


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Jeremy

40B INW

USAF


Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: January 15 2009 at 9:20am
Bump


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Posted By: Rioreefer
Date Posted: February 11 2009 at 4:56pm
So is this too much flow or ok, I have a 90G with 2 returns both mag 9.5 hard plumbed. Then I have one korilla 1 and two korilla 3s.. Yeah I have mostly softys and LPS only 4 SPS going right now.  So to much or ok becuse things are growing?

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I dont mean to brag but, yeah it's 6ft long.


Posted By: becken
Date Posted: January 27 2010 at 12:26pm
I'm not sure I understand this, I tried it, but it does not work it just blows in the same direction.  I cut it of pretty close, and it looks like the picture, I plugged it in and unplugged it and plugged it in, and got no positive result.  Then I plugged it into a timer and manually turned the knob, and got the same effect.  I didn't see how it would start in the opposite direction, but I decided to give it a try, but afraid I might have just defaced my powerhead.

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75g with 40g breeder, Dion stand and canopy, G4 skimmer, mag 12 return with seaswirl, 2 AI Vega LEDs


Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: January 27 2010 at 12:48pm
Is it a Maxijet?

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Posted By: becken
Date Posted: January 27 2010 at 12:51pm
yes 900

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75g with 40g breeder, Dion stand and canopy, G4 skimmer, mag 12 return with seaswirl, 2 AI Vega LEDs


Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: January 27 2010 at 4:32pm
Is the nozzle cut completely off, far enough back that the water can shoot out one direction and then the other? Like this O<

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Posted By: becken
Date Posted: January 27 2010 at 6:51pm
ya I thought I cut it back far enough, it looks pretty close to the picture, I can cut it back a little further and try that
I cut it back way far, and I was misunderstanding the "90 degrees" (its more like 45) for some reason I was thinking it would blow down and that just blew my mind how it would do that, but I understand and it works!!!  Thanks for the help!

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75g with 40g breeder, Dion stand and canopy, G4 skimmer, mag 12 return with seaswirl, 2 AI Vega LEDs


Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: January 28 2010 at 8:28am
Glad you made it work.
45 degrees? Well, I cut the plastic volute(the round casing in which the impeller spins) back a little more to the right and a little more to the left so the alternate water streams can shoot out at closer to 90 degrees from each other.
Looking again at that old pic I realize that it's hard to see just how far back I cut the nozzle off. In fact, in that pic it wasn't cut back far enough to give the full 90 degree shift. That was for a Poormans Wavemaker I did for a 55 gal. The Maxijet was on one end of the tank. A full 90 degree shift would have been too much. The full tank pic is here in a link to my tanks pictorial in the Tips and How to's section http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 - http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244
 
I have also since learned that smoothing out the inside edges helps the water stream flow straighter, fuller and faster.Smile


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Posted By: becken
Date Posted: January 28 2010 at 9:22pm

ya after cutting it back, waaaay back, (I had to cut at an angle on the top to save the lip that holds the volute on), but I stuck my hand in there and I would estimate it at a little more than 90 Big smile, but hey I like it and my coral seem to like it.



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75g with 40g breeder, Dion stand and canopy, G4 skimmer, mag 12 return with seaswirl, 2 AI Vega LEDs



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