You didn't mention if it's a reef or not.  Since you mention bio-wheels I'll assume you've got a fish only system.  If that's the case you're only nitrate export is water changes.  I would suggest 10% per week til the nitrates drop to an acceptable level.  If nitrates are the only problem, I don't seen any need to go to a wet/dry, keep the bio-wheels.

If it's reef (I'm assuming you've got 40 - 80 lbs live rock and/or a DSB) then slowly get rid of the bio-wheels.  You still need to do water changes to get the nitrates under control.  Target 10 - 20 ppm doing water changes, then remove one of the biowheels, wait, remove the other bio-wheel, wait, remove any other biological/mechanical filter (floss, mats, ect).  Make sure you've got plenty of circulation in the tank.  Maybe a few more water changes.  Key is to do this slowly and test your water.  Most reefs operate near zero nitrate (certainly under 5 ppm).

Biowheels and wet/dry filters do the same thing, provide a place for bacteria to colonize.  The bacteria convert ammonia to nitrite and then to nitrate.  To get rid of the nitrate you have a few options: water changes, nutrient export by harvesting algae, deep sand bed or plenumn, or denitrator filter. 

Has it been a gradual increase in nitrate over time or a spike lately? 

Dave

Question on bioballs and mat?  I purchased my setup used and it was previously used as a reef tank as well.  I hucked the plenum that came with it, but kept the bioballs and mat that are part of the sump.  Are you saying I should remove both of these?  My nitrates are a little high - 10-15, and very steady around there.  About a month ago I experienced my first bout with Cyano and have that under control now.  However, now I have this nasty brown long hair algae I can't get rid of.  Any suggestions?  Thanks!

Jared - the age on a bio-wheel does not matter.  They do not "pull out" or export anything.  They are just a place for bacteria to grow.  The end result of filtration of a closed system with a bio-wheel filter is Nitrate.  If the bio-wheel was not doing it's job there would be ammonia and or nitrites. 

You do bring up a good point that I missed though if you don't want to deal with nitrates then try to get the waste out of the tank before mineralization occurs by skimming the ammonia containing waste before the bacteria have a chance to convert it to nitrite->nitrate.

rfoote - if you have a good amount of LR and LS and your tank is established then there really is no need for bioballs.  If you do decide to pull them make sure it is very slowly (like a couple of balls per day)  I'm not sure what you are talking about with the "mat" 

As stated before.  Nitrate is only reduced in a low oxygen area (deep sand beds, etc.) and exported via other means (water changes, algae).

If you want to reduce the nitrate naturally keep these in mind.

I think you'll find there is a variety of ways to operate a successful reef tank.  In my opinion, there is no need for any bio filtration where the end product is nitrate i.e. bio wheels, mats, bio balls, even the filter sock seen on a lot of sumps.  IMO, 10 - 15 ppm nitrate is high.  Your corals most likely won't suffer too much from these levels, but you're more likely to have bouts of nuscence algae.  

rfoot, try this:  remove the mat first.  Let it sit a week (check for NH3/nitrite), then start removing bioballs one every day or two.  Keep checking NH3/nitrate.  You may have to do a water change or two after you're done before you nitrates drop.  If at any time you detect NH3/nitrite just stop and hold there until the tank cycles again.  Then start removing media again.

(if you're running your overflow into a sock, next time you change it, turn it inside out and examine.  It makes me sick to see all the little critters stuck in the sock...without a sock at least they have a chance to make it though the return pump and back into the tank.  It makes me almost want to stop skimming )

mrkelson - sorry haven't meant to take over your posting here.   Another question - Obviously when setting up my tank I was given some bad advise in a couple different items.  Another one I'm thinking at this point is I went with a crushed coral substrate - about 4" deep.  From everything I've been reading and stuff by Ron Shimek - you need to go with a fine sand.  I've had my tank up a little over a year now and been very slow about things, and other than slightly high nitrate my levels are good.  I don't know how I would go about replacing my crushed coral or if it would cause more harm.   Here are my levels;

Salinity 1.025

Alkalinity 8.5

Phosphate 0

Nitrate 10-15

PH 8.2

Calcium 440

Thanks!

Been thinking about it and I'm thinking my best option is probably to throw on a refugium with a real dsb in it.  Only problem is it would have to go in the basement.  I'll have to figure out a way to get the water back up and into the tank.

Quote: Originally posted by rfoote on 12 March 2003

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sarnack and jfinch - I thought the one good thing the bio balls were helping with is adding oxygen to the tank.  Is this not true?  I understand Nitrate can't be broke down where high levels of oxygen are present, but I also thought oxygen was essential to a reef. 

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The bioballs, on there own, do not add significantly to oxygen levels (the trickling water would though).  Bio balls were meant to be used in a wet/dry sump.  The bacteria that process ammonia to nitrite to nitrate need oxygen for this reaction.  When you let the water from the tank splash/trickle over a bed of bio balls you have an ideal nitrate producing situation...high surface area (bio balls) for bacterial growth and high oxygen levels since the water is falling through air.  As far as oxygen levels in the reef, if you operate a skimmer there will always be ample O2 in the water.  If you don't have a skimmer, you should have good water movement at the surface of the tank (and plants help too).

Bio balls (wet/dry, trickle filters) are the bomb in fish only systems, but IMO, are not needed in a reef aquarium.

Perhaps a review of the nitrogen cycle in in order:  All aquatic animals produce ammonia (NH3) and dissolved organic matter (DOM).  The DOM can easily be broken down to NH3 or removed in a protein skimmer.  In an evironment with oxygen present, the NH3 is consumed by bacteria and dumped back into the system as nitrite.  Another bacteria consumes the nitrite and expells nitrate.  It's the enzimatic oxidation of nitrogen.  Nitrate is fully oxydized so no further reactions take place.  The tradional way to get rid of the nirate is water changes.  In an environoment without oxygen, the reactions occur in reverse.  Nitrate is reduced to nitrite, nitrite is reduced to ammonia then the really nice reaction takes place.  ammonia is converted to nitrogen (N2) which just degasses from the aquarium.  This is what happens in plenum and/or deep sand bed and will also happen in slightly porous rock (live rock).

In reality all these bacteria are present in all aquariums competing for dominance.

From this model, it seems logical (to me) to want to reduce/inhibit the oxidation steps as much as possible by skimming the DOM and letting the live rock convert the ammonia to nitrogen.

Things are healthy - Corals are thriving, I've only ever lost one fish - due to the dumb wrasse jumping out of the back of the tank.  I had the tank up for about a year and had my first Cyano attack.  I have gotten rid of that successfully naturally.  Now I just have this nuisance green/brown algae on a good portion of my rock.  Firefish - you say to look at other possible problems - what would you suggest?  I am tedious about water changes and testing water.  Including my ro/di water.  The only thing I have not tested it for is TDS.  Jon - thanks for the info.!

rfoote:  How did you get rid of the cyano?  increased water circulation? (I've never had cyano...knock on wood).

firefish:  IME, Fish can survive very high nitrates indeed.  Much higher then 60 ppm.  I have not had experience keeping corals above 10 - 15 ppm.  I have seen tanks in that nitrate range with fine corals but always fighting hair algea.  I've always attributed this to the nitrates (I don't know how high the phosphates were).  If you have nitrates you have "food' for algea, put some nice looking macro algea in the tank and see if it will out-compete the hair. 

jfinch - where can I pick up some nice looking macro algae? 

 Getting rid of the Cyano was not easy.  I did several things - First of all I left my dsb alone - When doing water changes I would clean down I believe now too deep into the dsb - bringing up crap that had not completed its anaerobic cycle.  2nd - Over a months period I did a 75 gal(50%) water change every week.(major pain).  3rd - Replaced Mh Bulbs with new ones.  4th - Almost daily pulled up all Cyano with a turkey baster that I could.  5th - Bought two large Conch's - they have done wonders!  6th - Started dosing with ESV B-Ionic Calcium Buffer System to bring PH and Alk up.  7th - During this time held feeding and lighting to a minimum.

Sorry for the novel - Not sure which exactly addressed the source or if it was a combination of all.  However, it is gone and no traces - 4+ months later.  Just now this crappy brown/hair algae left behind.

Sorry - yes also increased water circulation - Originally I just had one 3/4 inch sea swirl.  Added 2 - 1200 and 2 - 900 Maxi Jets on timers.

 Just wanted to add my two cents worth, in my 90 gal tank i have no skimmer, no sock, no bio wheel, I do have bio balls in the over flow and some in  the sump to keep the culerpa from where it should be under 24 hr light.

7 month old system, 0 nitrate, 0 nitrite, 0 amon. no problem algea yet.

It may not last but is doing great so far.

check out http://www.ecosystemaquarium.com">www.ecosystemaquarium.com for more testimonials.

Quote: Originally posted by rfoote on 12 March 2003

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jfinch - where can I pick up some nice looking macro algae? 

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Thanks for the info on cyano...that's good stuff (the info not the algea )

Regarding maco algaes.  Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  I'm sure there are folks here with calerpa they could donate.  I've got a very small growth of halameda in my tank that hitched a ride on a nice orange sponge I bought a couple months ago.  I like the look of halameda more then calerpa so I didn't pluck it off.  Not enough to donate yet...give it a few more months.  If no one jumps up with some algae, there are a few fish shops that sell it.

Wow, look at all these posts.  I won't go into detail, but I do think there is a lot of confusion, and a lot of misunderstanding.  Especially on bioballs, biowheels, deep sand bed, and everything else with filtration....

Luckily this next months meeting is "Filtration" and I'm sure Jake will cover all of this.  But until then Oxygen=Bacteria=Amonia converting to Nitrite.  NoOxygen=Bacteria=Nitrite converting to Nitrate.  Nitrate is eaten by small stuff, or removed mechanically. 

Before anyone tears something out of there tank, wait until you know what does what. 

Adam

Quote: Originally posted by Adam Blundell on 12 March 2003

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Luckily this next months meeting is "Filtration" and I'm sure Jake will cover all of this.  But until then Oxygen=Bacteria=Amonia converting to Nitrite.  NoOxygen=Bacteria=Nitrite converting to Nitrate.  Nitrate is eaten by small stuff, or removed mechanically. 

Before anyone tears something out of there tank, wait until you know what does what. 

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Adam, I hesitate, being the new guy here, to find fault with the leader, but I don't think the above statement is correct.

NoOxygen=bacteria=nitrite converting to nitrate just doesn't jib.  In an oxygen deficient environment how does N02- oxidize to NO3-.

Nitrification is the biochemical oxidation of ammonia (NH3 or NH4+ depending on pH) to nitrite by nitrosomas bacteria and then the nitrite is oxidized to nitrate by nitrobacter bacteria.  This takes place in any aqueous system with bio available nitrogen and oxygen.

Denitrification is the biochemcial reduction of Nitrate to gaseous nitrogen (N2) and nitrous oxide (N2O) in an oxygen deficient (anaerobic) environment by heterotropic bacteria.  The bacteria use the oxygen within the NO3- for respiration.  This is, as I understand it, how both a plenum and DSB work (there may be other benfits to a DSB offered by the macro critters living there, such as consumption of DOM).

If, when you say nitrate is eaten by small stuff and removed mechanically, you mean eaten by bacteria and removed mechanically via water changes I agree.   I'm of the opinion that "nitrate sponges" sold by Kent and others are an expensive waste of money (just my opinion).

Do you keep bioballs/biowheel/ect in your reef?

Is the devil advocate still welcome here? 

By a skimmer, keep SPS's. hehe

Yeah, you are correct.  But so am I, I just didn't get into it.  I'm sure we will get plenty of this at the meeting.  Really, Nitrate is the end product, that is why we have test kits for it.  Ready for this.  Be prepared to be completely confused and lost.  Don't worry we all are. 

NH4+ (ammonium) + OH- (hydroxide) ---> NH3 + H2O  or with Oxygen

NH4+ (ammonium) + 3O2 -----> 2 NO2- (Nitrite) + 2H2O + 4H+  (this uses lots of oxygen and is termed aerobic)

2NO2- (Nitrite) + O2 ----> 2NO3- (Nitrate)  (this step uses little oxygen and is termed anaerobic)  (that is also bad terminology, jfinch is correct that we should still call this aerobic but often don't) 

Nitrate is the end product in nearly all nitrogen related microbial action.  Yes, we could get into Denitrification which is NO3 converting into gasses.  This may be more important than most people discuss, so I'm glad that jfinch is discussing it.  I for one think it is important, despite popular belief.  I think it is ignored because many see it as a potential disaster if NO3- goes back to NO2- or worse into NH4+ 

And by all means, please play the devils advocate.  It is the only thing that will allow us to make sure we are saying things correctly, and looking for more answers. 

After all, this is just my $.02 and maybe I am leading you astray 

Adam

Quote: Originally posted by rfoote on 12 March 2003

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mrkelson - sorry haven't meant to take over your posting here.   Another question - Obviously when setting up my tank I was given some bad advise in a couple different items.  Another one I'm thinking at this point is I went with a crushed coral substrate - about 4" deep.  From everything I've been reading and stuff by Ron Shimek - you need to go with a fine sand.  I've had my tank up a little over a year now and been very slow about things, and other than slightly high nitrate my levels are good.  I don't know how I would go about replacing my crushed coral or if it would cause more harm.   Here are my levels;

Salinity 1.025

Alkalinity 8.5

Phosphate 0

Nitrate 10-15

PH 8.2

Calcium 440

Thanks!

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mrkelson- I'm not sure why your aquatic pets are dying.  I was wondering if the dual biowheel filter is the only source of water movement in the tank?  If so I would recomend a couple of power heads strategically  placed. 

I use a method that Richard Brown (owner of corals and clams) recommends in his instructions for setting up a plenum.  I placed one power head on one side of the tank towards the top so that it creates a ripple across the top of the water.  I  place another  power head on the opposite side of the tank towards the bottom.  The two power head are pointed at each others side of the tank so that the water movement is not moving in a direction like that of a race track.   The power head that is on top I turn sideways so I can adjust the angle up and down to create the ripple of choice on the top of the water. 

I recommend maxijets, mine are 900s.  They create a water motion that rocks. 

Our set ups are nearly the same.  My tank is a 72 gal.  I have an Emporer dual bio wheel filter, however I removed the bio wheels after a couple of years of operation.  Of course as I already mentioned I use the 2 maxijet 900s.

rfoote- You mentioned in an earlier post that you were considering adding a sump to your tank and that the sump would be down stairs.  I recommend taking a look at Thu Phans aquarium or atleast talking to him.  He has this very setup.  Moreover it's a good excuse to see his beautiful tank.

I haven't recognized his name on the forum but his e-mail address should be on the club list.

rfoote and the rest,

One more point.  I think large sand like crushed coral, at about 4" deep is perfect!!!!  I think this is better than small sand!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Thousands of aquariums set up like this are working wonderfully.  If I were you I wouldn't just go around pulling sand out, or throwing sand in.  Just let it be, and all will be well.  

Adam 

Somebody needs to explain to me how adding a biowheel will help reduce nitrates.  Biowheels make nitrates, there is no way denitrification can occur in/on a biowheel.  If you have any detectable ammonia or nitrite then a biowheel will help (I'd still suggest a good protein skimmer, more live rock, or a well planted refugium).

If nitrates are really the problem you need nitrate export either through denitrification (which I think happens inside your live rock and perhaps in a DSB), plant growth (refugium and perhaps corals) or water changes.

Has anyone here ever experienced their macro's going sexual in their refugium?  What were the consequences?  Does keeping the lights on 24 hrs per day keep this from happening?

always the skeptic...

It is my understanding that soon after fish waste hits the water it chemically converts to ammonia/ammonium. In the presense of oxygen, billions of bacteria in the water and on surfaces like glass and rock exposed to oxygenated water consume the ammonia/ammonium as food, converting it to nitrate. Here are chemical equations for:

DENITRIFICATION: (Nitrate to gas & water)

This info is courtesy of CaribSea. They published an extensive reference sheet years ago that I have recently converted to an electronic file in MS Word format. It is very informative about a number of topics. If interested, email your request and I will reply with the draft copy.

You may notice that contrary to being a reverse process as was suggested in one of the posts above, bacteria in a low oxygen environment consume sugar and nitrate to obtain energy and the waste is carbon dioxide, nitrogen and water.

To answer the question of Caulerpa going "sexual." For some reason, that I have not been able to figure out I have seen Caulerpa start to dissolve. It starts with one stem and within 8 hours to two days it can be all gone. The dissolving away returns previously held nutrients back to the system which, depending on the amount of Caulerpa, can cause some real problems. Eng believes that his EcoReef 24 hour lighted sump of Caulerpa never dissolves, but I doubt this is true. I have two recommendations:

1) keep the caulerpa cut back to 1/3 the volume of the sump. When it reaches 1/2 it's time to harvest. One reason for the dissolving crash may be that the nutrient level falls to where the Caulerpa does not have enough food and so it chooses to die and send out babies to find a place where nutrients are available. If you let the Caulerpa fill the sump so that there is a lot of demand for food and then slow the feeding (fish food) a crash may occur.

2) Obtain other types of algae. Grape caulerpa is the hardiest and best growing for most aquariums and usually overtakes everything else. Keep the Grape Caulerpa cut way back. Encourage the growth of other Caulerpas and add red algae, brown sargassum(from fiji live rock) and other types of algae to your sump or tank. If anyone has suggestions of where to obtain more varieties of algae, please let us know. Sea Grasses would be fun to grow!

Mark mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]      "thinking outside the box"

Great message Mark!!!

Lots of places to get macro algae and seagrass (but seagrass deosn't usually do well in an aquarium).  My favorite places for algae are Fish 4 U, Inland Aquatics, DiverTom.com.  And I completely agree that the more species of algae, the better. 

And, did anyone else notice in Mark's equation the 24H+

That is pretty darn acidic to have happen in an aquarium.  Hence a main reason many people don't worry about denitrification, and the ability to convert NO3 in reef aquariums.  Once you can handle that part of the equation, then try dealing with the dillema of "where do the sugars come from?" 

Adam

Jon,

Bio-wheels will not reduce nitrate in your aquarium.

Also it is my opinion that macro algae reproducing sexually in the aquarium is good and not bad.  How many people have had a problem with macro algae sprouting up out of nowhere and tanking over your tank?

I just remembered a place in Hawaii that describes some awesome products for the person that wants micro-faunal and macro-algal diversity. It's called Indo Pacific Sea Farms http://www.ipsf.com">www.ipsf.com I may be interested in going half with someone. The 9 items for $99 might be a good deal. Does anyone have experience with this company?

Hawaiian MacroAlgae 6-Pack Special. Add color, motion and serious Nitrogen processing capacity to your tank, refugium or sump with our unique Ornamental MacroAlgae Assortment. Includes starter cultures of 6 great looking species commonly found on Indo-Pacific coral reefs. You get Tang Heaven Red (Gracilaria parvispora), Tang Heaven Green (Ulva sp.), Tang Heaven Gold (Gracilaria sp.), Feathery Caulerpa (C. sertularioides, 2 types - Long and Short) and Halimeda (Halimeda sp.). All species are captive bred at our Kona facility. $49.95 with any order ($59.95 if ordered alone). Now shipping. http://www.ipsf.com/ipsforder.html"> color=#0000ffOrder

Quote: Originally posted by Mark Peterson on 19 March 2003

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It is my understanding that soon after fish waste hits the water it chemically converts to ammonia/ammonium. In the presense of oxygen, billions of bacteria in the water and on surfaces like glass and rock exposed to oxygenated water consume the ammonia/ammonium as food, converting it to nitrate. Here are chemical equations for:

NITRIFICATION (Ammonia & Nitrite to Nitrate) (???)

NH₄⁺ + 2O₂ � NO₃ + H₂O +2H⁺

DENITRIFICATION: (Nitrate to gas & water)

5C₆H₁₂O₆ + 24NO₃^- + 24H⁺ � 30CO₂ + 12N₂ + 42H₂O

This info is courtesy of CaribSea. They published an extensive reference sheet years ago that I have recently converted to an electronic file in MS Word format. It is very informative about a number of topics. If interested, email your request and I will reply with the draft copy.

You may notice that contrary to being a reverse process as was suggested in one of the posts above, bacteria in a low oxygen environment consume sugar and nitrate to obtain energy and the waste is carbon dioxide, nitrogen and water.

---

The reason why I prefer to use a protein skimmer is to remove the organics before they have a chance to decompose to NH3/NH4+.

I should be more careful how I explain things (in regards to the reaction being reversed).  I come from a chemistry (engineering) background and yes the nitrogen cycle (as far as the nitrogen molecule is concerned) is going back and forth in an oxydation/reduction reaction.

Ammonia --> Nitrate (oxydation)

Nitrate --> Nitrogen/Ammonia (reduction)

The same "type" of reactions also take place in an aquarium with regard to sulfur.

Decaying biomatter --> H2S --> S04 (oxydation)

S04 --> H2S (reduction)

Quote: Originally posted by Jake Pehrson on 19 March 2003

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Also it is my opinion that macro algae reproducing sexually in the aquarium is good and not bad.  How many people have had a problem with macro algae sprouting up out of nowhere and tanking over your tank?

 

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Quote: Originally posted by Adam Blundell on 19 March 2003

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And, did anyone else notice in Mark's equation the 24H+

That is pretty darn acidic to have happen in an aquarium.  Hence a main reason many people don't worry about denitrification, and the ability to convert NO3 in reef aquariums.  Once you can handle that part of the equation, then try dealing with the dillema of "where do the sugars come from?" 

Adam

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Rick Greenfield, owner of CaribSea and a Ph.D Scientist of some sort himself, always used to talk of the acidic condition within the substrate which contributed to the dissolving of his product.  This process is what made using his product so beneficial because it released calcium and the other minerals from the aragonite into the water for use as buffer and coral builing material. Nobody could refute his claim because we didn't know enough about it ourselves! He claimed that eventually a person would have to add more substrate to replace that which dissolved.

Jon, Why would decaying algae create an ammonia spike? I always thought of it as leading to an increase of organic material bonded to phosphate, carbon and perhaps nitrates too. I'm in the dark here. Help!

Quote: Originally posted by Mark Peterson on 19 March 2003

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Rick Greenfield, owner of CaribSea and a Ph.D Scientist of some sort himself, always used to talk of the acidic condition within the substrate which contributed to the dissolving of his product.  This process is what made using his product so beneficial because it released calcium and the other minerals from the aragonite into the water for use as buffer and coral builing material. Nobody could refute his claim because we didn't know enough about it ourselves! He claimed that eventually a person would have to add more substrate to replace that which dissolved.

Jon, Why would decaying algae create an ammonia spike? I always thought of it as leading to an increase of organic material bonded to phosphate, carbon and perhaps nitrates too. I'm in the dark here. Help!

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I've heard that about dissolving CaCO3 too, but I've never heard of anyone actually having to add more substrate, have you?  If it were true, there would not be any H+ left for denitrification (back to adams statement).  The H+ is made in the nitrification process.

Re: decaying plants;  Just what I've heard, not experienced.  Wouldn't the amino acids (nucleaic acids) in the algae decompose to NH3?

I assumed Rick was speaking of a long term process that no hobbyist would ever notice.

Amino Acids? I would like to know how it all works and fits together so that we can be sure we are making use of the best filtration methods or to come up with better.

I agree that a skimmer takes out the organics before bacteria can get to them. SPS coral does best with good skimming. So what does that say about the use of biological filtration without skimming and its effect on SPS?

Quote: Originally posted by Mark Peterson on 19 March 2003

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I assumed Rick was speaking of a long term process that no hobbyist would ever notice.

Amino Acids? I would like to know how it all works and fits together so that we can be sure we are making use of the best filtration methods or to come up with better.

I agree that a skimmer takes out the organics before bacteria can get to them. SPS coral does best with good skimming. So what does that say about the use of biological filtration without skimming and its effect on SPS?

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All plant and animal life has proteins in the mix (nitrogen is found in DNA, ATP, complex proteins).

I'm not sure what you're getting at regarding SPS w/o skimmer.  I'm really not sure why SPS corals do better with good skimming.  They used to be a very difficult coral to keep, but now they're almost run of the mill.  Maybe SPS success has more to do with low nitrates then anything else?

How long has Bird World's display tank been operated using the Biolife (or whatever it's called) refugium system?  I'd call that a successful SPS/mixed tank without any skimming.

Jkelson and mrkelson- I actually didn't suggest that you add more bio wheels.  I think the ones you have are plenty and mabe too much according to jfinches point in regards to bio wheels accumulating nitrates. 

The message I was trying to relay is that the use of power heads as a means of water circulation in your tank would be a good idea.  I suggested this because you had asked if the filter with the bio wheels would create enough water movement.