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Need to lower my alk NOW!

Printed From: Utah Reefs
Category: Help
Forum Name: EMERGENCY FORUM
Forum Description: If you have an Emergency post here and you should receive a quick reply.
URL: http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=43314
Printed Date: March 28 2024 at 2:38pm
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Topic: Need to lower my alk NOW!
Posted By: Laird
Subject: Need to lower my alk NOW!
Date Posted: September 09 2010 at 8:06pm
Tank has looked great until a couple  days ago, stuff started to look bad.  Should have tested then but didnt.  

Things looked so so last night, and this morning I had lost 15+ frags of SPS, and 3 entire colonies, and noticed a ton of dead crabs and snails.  Checked everything and my Alkalinity was ungodly high, 23, and my cal was super low, 200.  had to leave for school and work and then took my water to the LFS to get there readings and they got the exact same thing.  

Salt 23, temp 78, ammonia and nitrites zero, mag 1200.  

Water change and add as much calc as I safely can right?  Any trick to lowering the alk other than that?  

Dumped in some calcium and started mixing salt before I posted this...


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Indefinite hiatus from sw aquariums.

Once I have my glorious return I'll set back up the following.
50 Gallon rimless cube.
180 Gallons mixed reef paradise



Replies:
Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: September 09 2010 at 8:08pm
Do that water change with water that has low alk (6 - 7) and high Calcium (500+)
 
 


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- My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) -

* Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 *


Posted By: Laird
Date Posted: September 09 2010 at 8:11pm
Originally posted by BobC63 BobC63 wrote:

Do that water change with water that has low alk (6 - 7) and high Calcium (500+)
 
 

Just by adding calcium to the new water before I put it in?


-------------
Indefinite hiatus from sw aquariums.

Once I have my glorious return I'll set back up the following.
50 Gallon rimless cube.
180 Gallons mixed reef paradise


Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: September 09 2010 at 8:11pm
Yes

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- My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) -

* Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 *


Posted By: Laird
Date Posted: September 09 2010 at 8:15pm
I just checked the salt I have, its about those levels already

-------------
Indefinite hiatus from sw aquariums.

Once I have my glorious return I'll set back up the following.
50 Gallon rimless cube.
180 Gallons mixed reef paradise


Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: September 09 2010 at 8:17pm
A 20% change with water that is alk 6 and Ca 500 should lower your overall tank levels to
 
alk 16 - 18
 
Ca 330 - 350


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- My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) -

* Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 *


Posted By: Laird
Date Posted: September 09 2010 at 8:20pm
Its only going to take all night to get enough water out of my RO system for even a 15% change tho.  grrr




-------------
Indefinite hiatus from sw aquariums.

Once I have my glorious return I'll set back up the following.
50 Gallon rimless cube.
180 Gallons mixed reef paradise


Posted By: Laird
Date Posted: September 09 2010 at 8:22pm
I still have SPS thats still alive but some of it is dying.  Should I frag off the dead now, or just leave it as it is?

-------------
Indefinite hiatus from sw aquariums.

Once I have my glorious return I'll set back up the following.
50 Gallon rimless cube.
180 Gallons mixed reef paradise


Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: September 09 2010 at 8:23pm
I would frag off the dead stuff if you can

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- My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) -

* Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 *


Posted By: Laird
Date Posted: September 09 2010 at 8:25pm
Heres what I mean about the partly dead sps.  

The bottom part thats white died and it broke off of rock it was on because of it.  Should I frag it off right above that or just leave it?  


-------------
Indefinite hiatus from sw aquariums.

Once I have my glorious return I'll set back up the following.
50 Gallon rimless cube.
180 Gallons mixed reef paradise


Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: September 09 2010 at 8:34pm
Frag off just above it

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- My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) -

* Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 *


Posted By: Laird
Date Posted: September 09 2010 at 8:42pm
Ok, did it.  

Luckily my two favorite sps are still here for the time being.  

That in the picture is my red planet that I didnt think was going to make it under the LEDs but it just took some time to get used to it.  It had been doing great the last month and had some new growth from the LEDs.  

But as I said before i've lost 90% of my SPS already.  So I'll be taking sps donations when everything gets fixed Big smile


-------------
Indefinite hiatus from sw aquariums.

Once I have my glorious return I'll set back up the following.
50 Gallon rimless cube.
180 Gallons mixed reef paradise


Posted By: jcom
Date Posted: September 09 2010 at 11:17pm
How did your alk get that high?


Posted By: sanddune600
Date Posted: September 09 2010 at 11:48pm
I have used vinager to bring ph and alk low check both and dont let ph get below 8 while doing this some people use vinegar with kalk reactors to bring calcium up

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Andy Jorgensen
My number is four three 5 7 six four 8 0 three four


Posted By: Nick801
Date Posted: September 10 2010 at 12:00am
Id just use tap water instead of waiting for the R/O

if I was in your situation

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http://www.reefinsanity.com" rel="nofollow - www.ReefInsanity.com
http://www.facebook.com/ReefInsanity" rel="nofollow - www.Facebook.com/ReefInsanity
801-680-4676


Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: September 10 2010 at 8:36am
Jake/jcom is right on with his question.
To properly help you in the short term and long term, it would be helpful to know how this happened. Not to criticize, but to help. We've all made mistakes. Hug

I've had Alk at 20 before but the Ca was at 300 so the tank didn't suffer too much and within a week the coral had used up the Alk.

In your case, with Ca at 200 that is where the real problem lies. The Ca needs to be raised as soon as possible. (This will also lower AlkBig smile)

Fragging is unecessary, IMO. When the water parameters get back in line, the coral will start to recover.

Have you ever heard of it snowing in the tank? When Alk and Ca are added together the combination precipitates out of solution, making it look like it's snowing.
No need to do a water change although a water change with Oceanic salt would be the best because of it's low Alk and high Ca.
Instead of the hassle of a water change in your 90 gal aquarium, simply dump in about a liter or more of Ca solution and watch it snowSmile. Raising Calcium by 50ppm is no problem, but the precipitation effect will take Alkalinity out of the tank water real fast. This is how nature balances the two parameters.


For the future, please remember that these answers are available in an emergency by a simple phone call to my number below. Smile


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Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks:
www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244
Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member


Posted By: Laird
Date Posted: September 10 2010 at 10:46am
I put in as mush calcium in as I thought was safe.   Soon as I get home today I'll do my water change.

My ph was low for a while so I was slowing using a concentrated buffer to bring it up.   I obviously was either putting to much in and not testing enough.
I have been out of town a lot the last month and had my girlfriend putting in the buffer when she was topping off the water because the ph was still low.   So I know what the problem was.


-------------
Indefinite hiatus from sw aquariums.

Once I have my glorious return I'll set back up the following.
50 Gallon rimless cube.
180 Gallons mixed reef paradise


Posted By: Laird
Date Posted: September 10 2010 at 11:01am
The lesson learned was just because everything looks good doesn't mean things are good.

Everything especially the sps had looked great until just a couple days ago. That's why I didn't bother testing.

-------------
Indefinite hiatus from sw aquariums.

Once I have my glorious return I'll set back up the following.
50 Gallon rimless cube.
180 Gallons mixed reef paradise


Posted By: Lewy
Date Posted: September 10 2010 at 11:39am
What do you use to raise your calcium?  I read in Mark's sig about using ice melt but it's not winter so I haven't seen any.

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40 gal w/ 20 sump


Posted By: Laird
Date Posted: September 10 2010 at 5:57pm
I'm use aquavitro calcification.

So I did a 15% water change a few hours ago.  Everything is already looking better again, but as I now know looks can be deceiving, haha.  the biggest difference that i can see is that the crabs and snails are out and more active.  I thought most of them were dead because they were all just in the sand not moving for a couple days.  Now they are out all over the tank and glass like normal.    


-------------
Indefinite hiatus from sw aquariums.

Once I have my glorious return I'll set back up the following.
50 Gallon rimless cube.
180 Gallons mixed reef paradise


Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: September 10 2010 at 9:22pm
Don't you have some new Alk and Ca levels to reportQuestion Confused

Originally posted by Laird Laird wrote:

...My ph was low for a while so I was slowly using a concentrated buffer to bring it up.
That is a common mistake. You are not alone. Smile
I hope what I say next makes sense.

Number one: Is pH the same as Alkalinity? No. Basically, pH is a measure of the amount of CO2 in the water. Simply said, Alkalinity is a measure of the amount of carbonates in the water. The "Buffer" products talk about raising pH but what they are really raising is Alkalinity. Because pH follows Alkalinity, when the Alk rises, so does pH. It's a chemistry thing.Smile

Number two: Should a hobbyist even worry about pH? Yes, but not really. There are two things that should be done so that a hobbyist never has to be concerned about pH.
 1. Test Alkalinity regularly and add baking soda solution to keep it somewhere near the middle of 8-14 dKH, 3-5 meq/L or 150-250 ppm. This topic has received a lot of discussion here lately so that's enough here.
 2. Get CO2 out of the aquarium as fast as possible. The biggest CO2 producer in a typical reef aquarium is the sand bed. CO2 is moved best when water flow is moving swiftly from the depths to the surface; from the bottom of the aquarium to the surface, but it doesn't stop there. The surface water must be rolling or agitated by the rising water stream. A follow-up point to this is to ensure that the rolling water comes into contact with plenty of fresh air so that the CO2 can dissipate and O2 can enter the water. This is why it's bad to have glass covers or tight fitting canopies over a marine aquarium unless there is a fan to blow in fresh air.

I hope this makes sense. For what it's worth, I have not tested pH forever, but I test Alk and Ca regularly.


-------------
Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks:
www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244
Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member


Posted By: jcom
Date Posted: September 10 2010 at 9:32pm
Sounds like a disaster was averted!  Clap
 
Hey, you should start making your own 2 part Ca & Alk.  I used to be a Tech A&B guy until I found out how easy it is to do.  Been saving mad $$$ ever since.
 
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php - http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php
 
I have 5 gallons of high grade Calcium Chloride and could sell some to you.  For the Alk, I just use Arm & Hammer baking soda.  Just mix the right amounts with RO water and you're good to go.  They're they same as the stuff you buy at the LFS.


Posted By: Laird
Date Posted: September 10 2010 at 11:45pm
Calc 250
Alk 15
Mag 1100

-------------
Indefinite hiatus from sw aquariums.

Once I have my glorious return I'll set back up the following.
50 Gallon rimless cube.
180 Gallons mixed reef paradise


Posted By: Laird
Date Posted: September 10 2010 at 11:52pm
I'd be interested in buying some of that calc from you.   Didn't you also get one of those Sps packs from r2r a couple months ago?

-------------
Indefinite hiatus from sw aquariums.

Once I have my glorious return I'll set back up the following.
50 Gallon rimless cube.
180 Gallons mixed reef paradise


Posted By: jcom
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 12:12pm
PM sent.


Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 7:20pm
Okay good.
- Alk was at 23 and has dropped to 15. That level will be fine now because it will easily drop into the acceptable range as the tank uses Alkalinity. The Alk range is 8-14 dKH.

- Ca was at 200 and has risen to 250. This is still an emergency situation. Hasn't it been about  3 or 4 days since the problem became apparent? By now you should have poured in approximately 6 cups of Ca solution to raise the Ca 50ppm per day which would have put it at the bottom of the range today. The Ca range is 350-550ppm


-------------
Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks:
www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244
Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member


Posted By: Laird
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 10:45pm
As of now it's only been two days.   I've been adding the max amount that the bottle says I can.   I've put around 5 cups in.

-------------
Indefinite hiatus from sw aquariums.

Once I have my glorious return I'll set back up the following.
50 Gallon rimless cube.
180 Gallons mixed reef paradise


Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 4:42pm
Sorry, but the bottle gives a maximum so that someone without understanding won't add too much when it isn't needed.
Do the instructions say anything about testing Alk to see if what you are adding changes the Ca level?
The tank needed more Ca than I even guessed.
Remember, I said that you can raise Ca by ~50ppm daily. You have not been adding enough Ca solution. The tank remains in a stress condition. It needed so much Ca that it sucked it up as soon as it hit the water. It is eating Ca faster than you know which is why it is still showing only 250ppm. If you follow what I am suggesting, at some point within the next few days it will reach equilibrium and the dose amounts needed will decrease.


-------------
Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks:
www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244
Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member


Posted By: Laird
Date Posted: September 14 2010 at 7:15pm
Things are about back to normal.

I was curious, is there any calcium strip tests that are worth a damn?   Its not a huge pain to test it the way I currently do, but it would be nice to just dip a strip in to test it.  


-------------
Indefinite hiatus from sw aquariums.

Once I have my glorious return I'll set back up the following.
50 Gallon rimless cube.
180 Gallons mixed reef paradise



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