Need Some Help
Printed From: Utah Reefs
Category: Help
Forum Name: General Help
Forum Description: The place to ask about pest, problems, hitchhikers, etc.
URL: http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=44143
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Topic: Need Some Help
Posted By: downhill_biker
Subject: Need Some Help
Date Posted: October 21 2010 at 2:33pm
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Alright...I am calling on all brains to help figure out my tank's problem. Around the time of the Reef Tour my tank started to decline. At first it was a blue carpet anemone, then corals, and it has progressively been getting worse. At this point I have about 3 corals alive in my tank...out of over a hundred... Here is what I know: Temp has been stable, at 78 degrees. My controller and glass thermo both agree on this. Temp hasn't varied more than a quarter of a degree. Salinity is 1.025. I have checked with hydrometer and refractometer both. pH has been between 7.8 and 8.25. You can see history here: http://www.reeftronics.net/curtis-j/rke-history - http://www.reeftronics.net/curtis-j/rke-history You may notice that temp dropped off yesterday, that is because I was cleaning the sump and probe was in a cup of water. Ca: 440-480 dKH: 10-12 Mg: 1500 Ammonia: 0 Nitrates: 0 Copper: 0 Other than that nothing has changed. No algae blooms, no bacterial blooms. I am just so confused. Last night I took all the sand out of my sump just because that was the only thing I could think of. ------------- Make sure you post your best pictures every month in our POTM forum. |
Replies:
Posted By: Ryan Thompson
Date Posted: October 21 2010 at 2:57pm
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I'm guessing here but here are some ideas. Number 1, fish. I blame fish for a lot of issues when parameters are in good condition. Especially algae eating fish. Number 2, I think your magnesium too high personally. I don't like to see mine north of 1400. 1300 to 1350 is where I keep mine. What are you dosing for magnesium? What salt is being used? I will post more later when I can |
Posted By: Aquaristnewbie
Date Posted: October 21 2010 at 2:57pm
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What livestock do you have in there? I am sure you know what may or may not eat corals but maybe something was munching down on them and you just never caught the culprit. Unlikely but just a thought. ------------- 150 gallon Reef Millcreek Utah |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: October 21 2010 at 4:36pm
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My first thought is to ask if you do anything to reduce PO4? How do the coral die? How long has the tank been going and do you have a pic somewhere? ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member 
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Posted By: downhill_biker
Date Posted: October 21 2010 at 5:22pm
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Good questions here. First I dont think it is fish, I have had coral dying in my display tank upstairs and also my frag tank downstairs. Both are in the same system, so share common water, but not common lighting or inhabitants. That also kindof rules out a worm or other parasite that could be killing them. I should clearify that I am having all types of corals dye. Acans, SPS, Welsos, zoas, frogspawn, hammers, duncans, ect. I have checked several times for parasites such as flat worms or red bugs and found nothing. I also don't think that they would all be dying. With the LPS the corals are kindof recessing tissue and eventually dying off. This is the normal way I have seen them dye. With the SPS there was several ways they died...pretty much every way possible...Some would RTN (very few), some would bleach out then drop off tissue, and some would lose tissue starting from the tips. Magnesium "could" be the issue, but honestly I have kept it this high for a very long time and it has been very good for my tank. Many others keep it this high...Like Tyree, Jared Butler, Marine Aquatics. It is said to help reduce the rate at which coralline grows, and since coralline takes in calcium at something like 3x faster than coral, it helps reduce the ammount of supplementation. I am using Instant Ocean Salt. I switched after things started to go downhill. Months after. I was using Reef Crystals before. The Reef Crystals were a good batch, I know that since I was using the 10 buckets I bought for the last year and a half. I have several things to reduce PO4. My filtration system until last night had a 100g deep sand bed, refugeum with cheato, grape calerpa, feather calerpa, and mangroves. Reverse lighting of display tank. I also use filter socks (changed daily), carbon reactor, and purigen in a large reactor. The tank has been set up for just over a year, here is a pic, although I haven't taken any recent ones. Mike Savage has the most recent, he took them at Reef Tour.  I should also include that about 2 months ago I lost the bluejaw trigger and the chevron tang, about 3 weeks apart. ------------- Make sure you post your best pictures every month in our POTM forum. |
Posted By: Ryan Thompson
Date Posted: October 21 2010 at 6:09pm
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Did you change lighting at all? I mean ANY tweaks of any kind? Electricity is another thing I'm thinking right now. Especially since a tang died |
Posted By: downhill_biker
Date Posted: October 21 2010 at 6:14pm
Nope. I thought maybe the bulbs were old, but I had corals dying in both tanks, upstairs and downstairs and the ones downstairs were fairly new. I replaced the bulbs unpstairs a couple days ago. Stray voltage...last night when I was taking out the sand bed and doing water change I kept getting the crud shocked out of me. I checked voltage and it was around 19v and would spike up to 45v at some times. But...now there is none. I think I got something wet that shouldn't have been. I am getting a 0 reading no matter how I try. I also have grounding probe. All thoughts are welcome. I just want to figure this out so I can have corals again, FOWLR tanks suck... ------------- Make sure you post your best pictures every month in our POTM forum. |
Ryan Thompson wrote:Posted By: Ryan Thompson
Date Posted: October 21 2010 at 6:20pm
| When did you install the grounding probe? I'm still betting stray electricity. Especially if a grounding probe is used. I've read too many horror stories with grounding probes. You have now completed the circuit and made it so the electricity has somewhere to go. |
Posted By: downhill_biker
Date Posted: October 21 2010 at 6:23pm
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Really? I have had the grounding probe the entire time I have had the tank setup. I have heard lots of debate on grounding probes, but I thought the general consensus was that they were good. I have had it the whole time, but electricity may have started leaking recently. It may be grounding now, through the probe, but last night when I was barefoot in a puddle of water I may have been a better curcuit than the probe...This is something to look into. Can you link me to any info that would suggest against the grounding probe?
------------- Make sure you post your best pictures every month in our POTM forum. |
Posted By: Ryan Thompson
Date Posted: October 21 2010 at 6:43pm
| I don't have any links. Just search reefcentral. I'm not an expert on the subject by any means |
Posted By: downhill_biker
Date Posted: October 21 2010 at 6:48pm
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I will see what I come up with. I will look more into it and when I get time I will test the voltage without the grounding probe. I will find out what is making the voltage...if anything....
------------- Make sure you post your best pictures every month in our POTM forum. |
Posted By: SGH360
Date Posted: October 21 2010 at 8:10pm
| Any thing drop by accident on the tank? some sort of chemical? it can happen specially when cleaning the house using cleaning supplies near the tank |
Posted By: Nick801
Date Posted: October 21 2010 at 8:43pm
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When your ready for some frags I'll hook you up with some for free =) you've always been great to deal with so I'll return the favor ------------- http://www.reefinsanity.com" rel="nofollow - www.ReefInsanity.com http://www.facebook.com/ReefInsanity" rel="nofollow - www.Facebook.com/ReefInsanity 801-680-4676 |
Posted By: badfinger
Date Posted: October 21 2010 at 9:11pm
| I was thinking stray voltage too.. but ya curtis, hit me up when you need some frags |
Posted By: CapnMorgan
Date Posted: October 21 2010 at 9:13pm
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I also have plenty to get you started again, including the stuff I got from you! ------------- Steve http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=40637&PID=356246" rel="nofollow - My Old 180G Mixed Reef Currently: 120G Wavefront Mixed 29G Seahorse & Softies Running ReefAngel Plus x2 435-8 |
Posted By: downhill_biker
Date Posted: October 21 2010 at 9:38pm
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Thanks guys!!! You are amazing for sure. I love the people in this club. As far as dropping a chemical in the tank...Yes, this could have happened, for sure, but it wouldn't stay in there for months on end. My corals would die overnight and not take weeks to die...at least as far as what I've seen. ------------- Make sure you post your best pictures every month in our POTM forum. |
Posted By: jwoo
Date Posted: October 21 2010 at 9:43pm
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Are you using any airborne cleaners? Fragrances? Even in the next room over? Maybe those air fresheners that spray stuff into the air every 2 hours or so? ------------- None at the moment Soon: 72 Gallon Bowfront |
Posted By: downhill_biker
Date Posted: October 21 2010 at 10:57pm
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No not using any automatic air fresheners or anything like that. Good thought though. Once the Oregon game (they are handing UCLA their arses) I will check the voltage issue.
------------- Make sure you post your best pictures every month in our POTM forum. |
Posted By: downhill_biker
Date Posted: October 22 2010 at 12:18am
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So, turns out I two grounding probes, neither are in my tank. I tested voltage, got a 0 reading. I realized my carbon reactor pump wasn't put back in the tank after cleaning sump last night. So i plugged that in and set it in the water, and it shocked the crap out of me. I left it on, in the water, and tested, got a 0v reading. Pulled it out of the water and tested directly on the pump and got 50v. Anyone know what is going on here? As of now that pump is definitely not in the water, or plugged in. ------------- Make sure you post your best pictures every month in our POTM forum. |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: October 22 2010 at 8:01am
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I don't completely understand the explanation but the usual problem is a break in the insulation on the wire where it goes into the pump. If the water is grounded anywhere in the system, the voltmeter will always register zero volts and you will not feel a shock. The water can also become grounded if a ground wire to anything in the water is able to have contact to the water through a crack in the insulation. If the water is grounded, perhaps only when you remove that "broken" wet pump from the water while it's plugged in, it will zap you, especially if you are touching something that leads to ground. Standing barefoot or kneeling in a puddle of water or on wet carpet is the best way to feel the buzzzzz.  Normal ground voltage is 10-40 VAC. Not DC(direct current), but AC(alternating current) In this situation, the way I would check for ground voltage would be to unplug everything that has any chance of touching the water. Then, with someone watching the voltmeter for any change, I would plug in each item to see if one of those items is the culprit. Since you have had two grounding probes, I doubt it is stray voltage if there is any. Electricity takes the most direct route from the broken wire to the grounding probe which is typically in the sump as well, so it's not like it was electrocuting coral or fish.  (FYI, to do the job properly a grounding probe MUST be used with a GFCI.)So you are not using any Phosphate remover of any kind? How long have you used the Carbon Reactor? How often is AC(activated carbon) being used in this tank? What brand? How long have you been using Purigen? Do you recharge and reuse it? ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: Chris Scott
Date Posted: October 22 2010 at 10:56am
Next week USC is going to upset Oregon!! It's basically our bowl game since we're banned from the post season!! Go SC!! OK, back to the thread... ------------- 55g Bowfront Corner Reef |
Posted By: Luckedout
Date Posted: October 22 2010 at 4:29pm
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Another reefer was just having problems with his purigen as well....
------------- -Ben 90g Mixed reef www.body-balancechiropractic.com |
Posted By: Ryan Thompson
Date Posted: October 22 2010 at 4:42pm
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I've been running purigen on my dads tank for about 7 or 8 months. Admittedly I've never recharged it. It is the only thing that ever worked to clear up his cyano completely. I've been running purigen in my own tank for about a month now. No ill effects of any kind. Neither are run through reactors though. One is in its original bag with water flowing over it and the other is in a media bag inside its original bag. The media bag is placed close to my drain pipe. I don't think I will be recharging them. Just buy new bags if I need to. |
Posted By: PDoug
Date Posted: October 22 2010 at 6:55pm
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So barring the electrical issue... If the problem still exists; metals perhaps Copper, Mercury, Even Iron (the mag was addressed) Another thought is the corral death domino effect? ------------- (307)679-7898 Phillip Douglass 75 Gallon Reef Tank |
Posted By: downhill_biker
Date Posted: October 22 2010 at 8:11pm
They better bring more than their "A Game". The Ducks are very, very strong right now. ------------- Make sure you post your best pictures every month in our POTM forum. |
Posted By: downhill_biker
Date Posted: October 22 2010 at 8:19pm
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I have never heard of PuriGen hurting anything or having issues. Maybe you can explain more, Ben? There could be several impurities in the water due to the pump issue, way to thin outside the box. Copper tested at 0ppm, but there could be other things. I added a new poly filter today and I will see if it changes color and what color it does change. Mark, as far as phosphate removal, what do I need? I thought that a combination of my filtration would remove phosphates. The purigen doesn't do it? Carbon? Macroalgae? I just added the poly filter, I know that it removes phosphates among many other impurities. BTW, I have a lot of purigen, I think it's 2L of it in the reactor. ------------- Make sure you post your best pictures every month in our POTM forum. |
Posted By: downhill_biker
Date Posted: October 22 2010 at 8:23pm
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I had to look back over your questions again Mark, but here they are: The carbon has been in the system for the entire life of the tank. It is about 3 cups worth of carbon, granuals, and is changed once a month. The purigen was added to the system about 2 months ago, and was brand new. It hasn't been recharged or anything, but it should still be good right? ------------- Make sure you post your best pictures every month in our POTM forum. |
Posted By: Kyle Wrigley
Date Posted: October 22 2010 at 8:28pm
| Im sorry to hear about this. I was using some of your homemade food last night and thought I need to see your tank again. Im trying to remember your set up more to think of a cause. |
Posted By: downhill_biker
Date Posted: October 22 2010 at 8:30pm
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Ya I need to make more food. I just dont have the money to buy the supplies right now. Maybe in a few weeks. I think last time it was almost $400 for the ingredients...but back to topic, lol. If you think of anything feel free to chime in. I hope I am fixing the problem here and can keep coral once again.
------------- Make sure you post your best pictures every month in our POTM forum. |
Posted By: jcom
Date Posted: October 22 2010 at 11:45pm
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Do you test with Salifert PO4 tester? Have you ever run GFO in the system?
I would ditch the Purigen if your nitrates are testing low, let the macro do its work, and focus on PO4.
I was testing zeros on Nitrates and PO4 yet was still getting hair algae in spots. I ran GFO for a couple of months and the HA vanished. I then slowly transitioned out out of a chaeto/refugium system (took 1/4 of chaeto out 1 week at a time until zero chaeto) in to a carbon/bacteria based system (abandoned GFO) and coral growth has literally taken off. I have 3 corals that didn't grow at all in 9 months that took off growth-wise 2 weeks after switching to a bacterial/probiotic based system. I'm now a true believer in the bacterial/probiotic system as I believe it provides a 24/7 planktonic food source for corals. Food for thought.
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Posted By: downhill_biker
Date Posted: October 23 2010 at 12:27pm
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No I test with an API kit and it reads 0ppm. I know that phosphates are hard to measure sine they are often consumed just as fast as they are produced. I don't see why I would have excessive PO4 though...I don't have algae. I have the chaeto, and other macro algae and it is growing, and growing well. I also use the purigen, but dont see how that could possibly be hurting my tank. I will look into the method you speak of, it may be something beneficial to my tank, but I am pretty positive that this is not the cause of coral death. That doesn't add up to me.
------------- Make sure you post your best pictures every month in our POTM forum. |
Posted By: MadReefer
Date Posted: October 23 2010 at 12:36pm
| Isn't there a place you can send a water sample and they will give you a full analysis? Maybe it's an odd metal that is not easy to test for. I can't say I'm an expert, but do you want me to come over to be another set of eyes on the situation? |
Posted By: downhill_biker
Date Posted: October 23 2010 at 12:49pm
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I could always use your company. For some reason I thought you left the area...I am going to the Utes game today, and after tailgating I will probably be useless the rest of the day, but if you want to come over another day that would be fine. If nothing else it would be good to see you again Jesse. I may have fixed the problem with the pump shocking the tank, not sure. I will try a new coral frag of some sort and see how it goes.
------------- Make sure you post your best pictures every month in our POTM forum. |
Posted By: Nick801
Date Posted: October 23 2010 at 1:02pm
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Hey Curtis have you taken your water anywhere for a double test? ------------- http://www.reefinsanity.com" rel="nofollow - www.ReefInsanity.com http://www.facebook.com/ReefInsanity" rel="nofollow - www.Facebook.com/ReefInsanity 801-680-4676 |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: October 23 2010 at 3:33pm
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It's natural to assume by my question that I was asking if you run PO4 remover because there may be too much PO4 in the tank. Actually, the 3 or 4 times I saw a problem like yours it was because the hobbyist had been running Activated Alumina PO4 remover continuously for a year so there was too little PO4 and the AA had possibly contaminated the water with aluminum or something associated with the manufacturing process of that media. To put some minds at ease, I have yet to hear of continuous GFO (granulated ferrous oxide) creating the same problem. What brand of AC is being used? Bad AC can cause problems. There was a hobbyist here years ago with brass fittings on the output side of their RO unit that had trouble with coral. As has been mentioned, it's also possible that the water going into the tank has a problem. Is there another reef aquarium in your vicinity. I wonder it that tank is having any problems that might be related to the city water? ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: builderofdreams
Date Posted: October 23 2010 at 6:59pm
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I have been using the small bag of purigen for almost 2 years.As soon as that stuff turns yellow i Clean it or recharge whatever ya want to call it.Difference is i rechrge it at least once a month.toss it in a mixture of 50/50 bleach and fresh water for 24hrs.Rinse the hell out of it.Then toss it back into same container with fresh water for 24rs,then into the sump.
There is also another post that was having problems which (i could not find)and both tanks have a common denominator.Mag is to high.1360ppm is natural sea water. I ahve aquatica test my Calcium and Magnesium thtas how i know that.Might be something might not. ------------- It's Not a Hobby It's an Obsession 150&210 Gallons of Madness and. Sanity! 801-850-4915 http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=65135&title=builderofdreams-feedback-post |
Posted By: downhill_biker
Date Posted: October 24 2010 at 11:18am
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I see what you mean Mark. No I have no GFO or other media like that. The carbon I use is granuole carbon that "Rockstarfish" was selling. I think I'm ok, since half of the club is using the same carbon and if that was the problem it would show up elsewhere, and it probably would have started a while ago when I first started using it, switched to this stuff about a year ago. There are a couple tanks up here, AveSaltGuy and chastings, both have tanks, and I dont know about the first, but Charlie(chastings) tank is doing better than ever. ------------- Make sure you post your best pictures every month in our POTM forum. |
Posted By: downhill_biker
Date Posted: October 24 2010 at 11:21am
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Builderofdreams, I will look more into the Mag. I am pretty sure I am safe since I have seen lots of very high end tanks with high Mag. But, I will do more research to make sure they didn't have problems later due to this. I will take my water in to get double tested again, I did it a couple months ago at Birdworld, and everything checked out to read just like I had tested. Maybe I will go visit the new owners of Marine Aquatics and test the water. Do they do that? ------------- Make sure you post your best pictures every month in our POTM forum. |
Posted By: builderofdreams
Date Posted: October 24 2010 at 11:30am
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I cannot Help you there. i am in Utha County and only use Aquatica.
I have relied on Shawn for the last two years and he has never steered my wrong. ------------- It's Not a Hobby It's an Obsession 150&210 Gallons of Madness and. Sanity! 801-850-4915 http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=65135&title=builderofdreams-feedback-post |
Posted By: builderofdreams
Date Posted: October 24 2010 at 11:57am
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Check out this Link.
http://www.fishchannel.com/media/saltwater-aquariums/aquarium-frontiers/calciums-little-sister.aspx.pdf - http://www.fishchannel.com/media/saltwater-aquariums/aquarium-frontiers/calciums-little-sister.aspx.pdf
Maybe you can understand it better than i could.
------------- It's Not a Hobby It's an Obsession 150&210 Gallons of Madness and. Sanity! 801-850-4915 http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=65135&title=builderofdreams-feedback-post |
Posted By: cl2ysta1
Date Posted: October 25 2010 at 12:10am
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you said you just recharge the carbon??? by adding more to the old? or completely replacing? if so i'd try completely replacing it... i doubt it is a voltage issue by the way the corals are affected.. and all your levels are in line. I'd try a double check on all your water parameters including the salinity.
also.. how are your sps dying.. at the tips first than all over... or from teh base first than all over..
what are you using to dose your tank? I think the instant ocean is a mistake... Im thinking you need to switch back to reef crystals ------------- I <3 Boxers Achilles tang lover |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: October 25 2010 at 7:15am
 Sounds like a visit would be helpful here. Give me a call at the number below. While I'm in the area, I'd like to visit Charlie too.
------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: downhill_biker
Date Posted: October 25 2010 at 1:00pm
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Crystal, no I replace the carbon, fully replaced not added to. Brand new once a month. I didn't switch to instant ocean I switched to oceanic. I haven't heard anything about them having bad salt, but I will look more into it. To be honest this started happening months and months before the switch. I will double check params. I dose with kalkwasser. Mag is maintained with BRS mag chloride and epsom salts, in the ratio that BRS recommends. SPS are all dead...but they were dying both from the base and from the tips, they were also bleaching and then losing tissue throughout. Mark, I will call today. Maybe we can plan to meet tomorrow. Today I am pretty busy with errands and chores. ------------- Make sure you post your best pictures every month in our POTM forum. |
Posted By: cl2ysta1
Date Posted: October 29 2010 at 11:38pm
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Oceanic tends to be incredibly high in Magnesium.. I'm honestly guessing the sudden change from IO to Oceanic stressed all the sps out and they crashed.. Sps are very finicky and like very stable conditions... we had a similar issue when we switched from tropic marin pro to Reef crystals.. had RTN on all sps that were by return pumps... (from the new saltwater hitting them when put in the sump.. ) im guessing once everything stables back out since all the parameters are normal that things will be back to normal again..
Good luck and im sorry that this happened.. it is not fun to watch years of work go down the drain ------------- I <3 Boxers Achilles tang lover |