Help- The dreaded ich!
Printed From: Utah Reefs
Category: Help
Forum Name: EMERGENCY FORUM
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URL: http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=44211
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Topic: Help- The dreaded ich!
Posted By: DLindquist
Subject: Help- The dreaded ich!
Date Posted: October 23 2010 at 9:09pm
I posted maybe about two weeks ago about an ich problem I was having.  I have been feeding with a couple of different garlic oils (Kent Extreme Garlic and an actual diced garlic my wife uses for cooking) All the fish eat great. However, the ich is still present. I posted a lot of details in another thread listing all my new fish http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=43217 - http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=43217 I couple other fish have ich present also. It seems to get better then reappears. Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated. Let me know of any questions which may help recommendations.
-Thank you. ------------- A government strong enough to give you everything you want, is powerful enough to take everything you have. |
Replies:
Posted By: SGH360
Date Posted: October 23 2010 at 11:11pm
| QT all of your fish ich will not go away. i have the same dilemna copperband brought the sickness. myblue tang was the most infected my clownfish never show any ich. that was 2 months ago the ich is still present. but my blue tang have little ich for the past 3 weeks. and i used the seachem garlic oil. but if you truly want to save your invesment QT and wipe the och |
Posted By: MadReefer
Date Posted: October 23 2010 at 11:37pm
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QT is the way to go if you can be successful. I've never setup a good QT tank. I tried when I first started and it didn't always work so I gave it up. It didn't always work because I set it up in haste when I already had the problem. It's best to have it ready and use it for all incoming livestock.
For some reason I only saw ich when I was new to this hobby. But something that seemed to work then (when it didn't stress the fish more than it was worth) was ph/temp adjusted freshwater dips for just a couple minutes.
Actually the above statement about only seeing ich when I was a newb wasn't completely true. After I had over a year and a half of experience (maybe still a newb) I bought a tiny, tiny, tiny blue tang. It got ich. I just fed it well (it took many foods before I found that it would eat two types of flake), with garlic every other feeding. I was lucky and it lived to grow to several inches before I sold it when I took down my 180.
PS- maybe I'm still a newb.
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Posted By: MadReefer
Date Posted: October 23 2010 at 11:42pm
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Another thought. I think it's best to make the tank happy and remove any stress. You can do this by overfeeding and feeding with very high quality food. Only do this if your tank can handle the waste of the food. And feed many times throughout the day. |
Posted By: builderofdreams
Date Posted: October 23 2010 at 11:54pm
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Are you using a Good UV? ------------- It's Not a Hobby It's an Obsession 150&210 Gallons of Madness and. Sanity! 801-850-4915 http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=65135&title=builderofdreams-feedback-post |
Posted By: MadReefer
Date Posted: October 24 2010 at 12:27am
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I can't believe I forgot UV. When my tiny blue tang lived through ich, I had a big UV sterilizer on a smallish tank. Then I ran it for a while after I setup my 180. UVs will stop the spread. I also had success without a UV, but I would recommend you get a UV sterilizer. |
Posted By: cl2ysta1
Date Posted: October 24 2010 at 12:41am
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UV for sure! ------------- I <3 Boxers Achilles tang lover |
Posted By: DLindquist
Date Posted: October 24 2010 at 1:31am
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High quality food (frozen-Emerald Entree, Squid, Brine Shrimp, Coral & Cyclo) Pellets and Flake every now and then. I do not have a UV. I ran one many years ago but do not have one set up now. However, something I have been considering. ------------- A government strong enough to give you everything you want, is powerful enough to take everything you have. |
Posted By: bstuver
Date Posted: October 24 2010 at 1:36am
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UV works wonders!
------------- Jackie Stuver "wait these aren't the happy Hawaiians oompa doompa godly heaven on your face zoas? I dont want them then. lol!" Ksmart |
Posted By: Nick801
Date Posted: October 24 2010 at 9:18am
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don't forget to turn down flow rate through the uv =) though I'm not exactly sure what the recommendation is for ich I'm sure someone will reply with in an hour or so of me posting this.... anyway I'm pretty sure you need it pretty dang slow to actually be affective towards ich ------------- http://www.reefinsanity.com" rel="nofollow - www.ReefInsanity.com http://www.facebook.com/ReefInsanity" rel="nofollow - www.Facebook.com/ReefInsanity 801-680-4676 |
Posted By: CapnMorgan
Date Posted: October 24 2010 at 9:36am
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it depends on your uv unit but usually 500gph is about where it needs to be. ------------- Steve http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=40637&PID=356246" rel="nofollow - My Old 180G Mixed Reef Currently: 120G Wavefront Mixed 29G Seahorse & Softies Running ReefAngel Plus x2 435-8 |
Posted By: builderofdreams
Date Posted: October 24 2010 at 10:05am
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I recently went through the same thing with Ich I lost 12 out of 17 fish.
My UV bubl was ot doing it's job and the flow rate was to high.
I put a new 25 watt turbo twist and then cut the flow rate to 85 gallons an hour.Which is good for parasites.
Lost no more fish after that.I will see if i can find the Article in which explains the flow settings.Here is a good link to help understand.
http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumUVSterilization.html
------------- It's Not a Hobby It's an Obsession 150&210 Gallons of Madness and. Sanity! 801-850-4915 http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=65135&title=builderofdreams-feedback-post |
Posted By: builderofdreams
Date Posted: October 24 2010 at 10:26am
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Just a heads up on the UV i learned the hard way.
do not leave the uv on with no water running throughit.
my uv is attched to my return,so when i feed i would shut the pump off.
Salt water is worse than fresh cause the salt will cystalize on the glass over the bulb and reduce the effectiveness of the light. i shut my uv off about 2 minutes prior to shutting down pump. ------------- It's Not a Hobby It's an Obsession 150&210 Gallons of Madness and. Sanity! 801-850-4915 http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=65135&title=builderofdreams-feedback-post |
Posted By: cl2ysta1
Date Posted: October 25 2010 at 12:20am
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slow flow through the UV if it is too fast it wont effectively kill the ich... we used small maxi jets ------------- I <3 Boxers Achilles tang lover |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: October 25 2010 at 7:55am
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I have to aplogize for the limited help I was when you called Sat night. I was very distracted and I do better when given some time to think. At this point you have tried Kents and a prepared garlic used for cooking. I don't consider fresh garlic as useful as the prepared garlic oils. In my experience, the stinky garlic oil in gelcaps from the grocery store or health food store has been more reliable in a greater number of reef aquariums. I definitely agree with the use of UV. I don't know how the slow flow does it since it only processes a small amount of water. I used to be a skeptic of this piece of equipment, but it definitely seems to do the job. I have a hunch that it does something to the water of the entire tank, making it unhealthy for water borne parasites. I arrived at this hunch after realizing that the natural UV in sunlight has a positive effect on my sunlit tanks, even though a lot of the UV is stopped by the window and the tanks get direct sunlight for only a portion of the day. I often write about making our tanks more healthy and reducing stress. As was mentioned above, making sure there is plenty of a variety of foods especially more plant foods than hobbyists typically provide, is a big part of that. Overfeeding actually reduces aggression between competing fish. A few other things that help reduce stress are: - aquascaping to provide plenty of hiding places - good coral growth which helps filtration, parasite consumption and indicates good water quality - ensuring live foods, both plant and animal are present and growing - ensuring that water parameters are within range and relatively constant - minimizing changes to the tank - keeping kids from banging on the glass  ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member 
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Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: October 25 2010 at 8:24am
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UV for sure, David
I am not a big fan of QT tanks simply because IMO they need to be fairly large in order to provide a stable enough environment for the new livestock; much larger than many hobbyists would want to have devoted to a QT tank... for small fish like firefish I would recommend a 30g QT. Again, bigger, and more hassle to set up and run than most people would want to have to do.
I also wonder if ozone would be of any help in destroying the larval stage of the parasite?
(Mark may have a bettter answer on this)
------------- - My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) - * Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 * |
Posted By: DLindquist
Date Posted: October 25 2010 at 8:58am
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Ich is such a pain! 14 years in SW and this is the 1st time I have had this problem (or any real problem I can remember). I will be looking into the UV sterilizer. If any one has a UV setup I could borrow for the time being, it would be greatly appreciated. Mark, I believe your checklist accurately describes my tank. Besides over feeding (which sometimes I wonder if I already do) and the UV, I am not sure what else to do. I know I lost one of the Helfrichi Firefish and did not see the other one at all yesterday.------------- A government strong enough to give you everything you want, is powerful enough to take everything you have. |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: October 25 2010 at 9:33am
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Yes, Ozone is an alternative method of controlling Ich and it works quite well though nothing is 100%. I have to admit, with all my talk of trying to help others with their reef aquarium problems, I'm not smart enough to avoid this kind of situation myself. From time to time I have the same problems. It's one of those things that happens when adding new stuff to our tanks or sometimes just out of the blue.  ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: thathiep
Date Posted: October 29 2010 at 3:40am
| Update? |
Posted By: DLindquist
Date Posted: October 29 2010 at 9:05am
Sadly both Helfrichi Firefish are gone. It looked like the ich was also gone. However, last night I noticed spots again on the Kole Tang.  Still feeding with different garlics. Still have not been able to install a UV Sterilizer.------------- A government strong enough to give you everything you want, is powerful enough to take everything you have. |
Posted By: Shane H
Date Posted: October 29 2010 at 10:04am
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I'm sorry to hear about your firefish. I'm curious about your garlic treatments though. Were the firefish consuming the garlic marinated foods? How long had they been eating this food before they perished? Were you feeding any garlic proactively - as a preventative measure? Do you think the garlic has helped in any way? I'm not a proponent of using garlic to combat ich. Although I don't believe it is harmful, I'm skeptical of the reported benefits. Curious to get your take as you're right in the middle of problem that garlic is advertised to solve.
Good luck!
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Posted By: DLindquist
Date Posted: October 29 2010 at 11:04am
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Shane- it was and still is a sad loss. In my 14 years of SW, I have never had any issues with ich. Therefore, I was not using garlic as preventative measure. I started using Kent Extreme Garlic (as recommended) about 1 week after acquiring my Melenarus & Kole Tang- which is when I noticed the ich on the Kole Tang. Shortly after that I was able to pick up my Pacific Redstripe Hogfish. A total of 10 fish and no husbandry problems. In fact, I would ofter observe all 10 fish hanging out together.
I believe all fish where consuming the various marinated food but did not pay particular attention to any individual fish. Second week into the problem, the ich began to spreed. The Helfrichi were the next 2 fish to get hit with ich. I increased the garlic treatments to include a couple of daily drops of garlic directly into the aquarium (as recommended by the manufacture).
Between the second and third week in, the ich appeared to be clearing up and on the point of being gone. Continued treating garlic regularly. Soon after the ich was back. The Kole Tang showed large pea size white spots on his body. Firefish were covered in ich. My Filamented, Exquistie and Mystery wrasse showed small signs of ich. (Melenarus, Blue Spot, Pacific Redstripe and Diamond Goby never showed any signs of ich through this entire time). Interesting- these four along with my Mystery Wrasse fish eat like pigs. The Melenarus and Mystery Wrasse has almost doubled in size. As recommended, I began treating with three other types of garlic.
At this point, I paid very close attention to each fish to ensure they were eating. I did notice the Helfrichi were very particular as to the type of food they would eat (very small sized pieces, mainly Reef Plankton). I could probably assume they were not getting as much to eat as they could have. Continued treating with garlic. Problem appeared again to get better. Firefish and Kole looked to be clearing up. All other fish showed no signs of ich.
Week four, Firefish appeared to be covered with ich. I even noticed them scratching against the sand. That day, the first Helfrichi appeared to be dead. Death confirmed the next day and second Firefish disappeared and has not been seen since. Kole Tang shows sign of ich also.
Current- all remaining fish look healthy besides the Kole Tang. Can't get close enough to confirm his condition. I am still treating with the four different types of garlic.
Rather or not the garlic has made a difference is very hard to say. All fish consumed foods marinated in garlic. Yes, some fish ate and eat more than other fish. I was very aggressive with the garlic treatments and still lost two of my prized fish. Ich still seams prevalent. ------------- A government strong enough to give you everything you want, is powerful enough to take everything you have. |
Posted By: cl2ysta1
Date Posted: October 29 2010 at 11:27pm
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Honestly.. I dont believe in the garlic. I think it makes things worse.. JMO... Science wise... the UV sterilizer is the only treatment... It will kill the ich as they pass through it.. remember ich is a parasite.. all the garlic in the world into your tank isnt going to stop their life cycle... I think it just stresses out fish more and in turn causes them to shed their slime coats... Get a UV ... they are very cheap on ebay.. We got two large ones for under 100 bux i believe and run both on our large system ------------- I <3 Boxers Achilles tang lover |
Posted By: MadReefer
Date Posted: October 30 2010 at 12:28am
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Garlic engages the immune system of the fish. It doesn't make the immune system work better. It doesn't kill the ich. Just turns on the immune system so it's active before needed, and that might prevent ich from being able to attach. I think it helps, but only a little bit. I think it can be overused and I don't think it should be used for every feeding. |
Posted By: SGH360
Date Posted: October 30 2010 at 12:52am
| UV will not kill all of the ich parasite, it will only kill them if they come in contact with UV, before this ich will already have found a host to be in. Unless the whole tank is in UV than ich will be present Copper treatment will eradicate it or even dip FW with copper will help along with UV and garlic treatment and no stressful life they will thrive |
Posted By: DLindquist
Date Posted: October 30 2010 at 9:28am
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Another Update- Kole Tang and Filamented Flasher shows signs of ich! In my opinion (and experience) garlic doesn't seem to do much if ich is already present. I would also say, in my experience, garlic is not needed to prevent ich. I cannot say however, if using garlic preventatively would have helped in this situation. In fact, that is something that would be impossible to determine.
Time to track down a UV unit. Lets hope for the best. ------------- A government strong enough to give you everything you want, is powerful enough to take everything you have. |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: October 30 2010 at 10:40am
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Someone here probably could loan you a UV Sterilizer. Just post the request. I don't know exactly why just a little tank water flowing through UV radiation can stop Ich, but it does. A little water flowing through a skimmer with Ozone also does the job, although these methods are still not 100% effective. It's physically impossible for most of the parasites to be drawn through the UV Sterilizeror or Skimmer and the Ich on the fish does not go through. Perhaps it works because the change to just a small amount of water changes some part of the water chemistry of the entire tank enough to irritate the parasite. It is my understanding that UV actually produces some Ozone. From what I have seen and what I know of body functions, Garlic Oil does not enhance the fishes immune system. Technically, when we talk about the immune system we are talking about antibodies; living microscopic cells produced by the body and put into the blood for the purpose of mass attacking with the intent to kill the microscopic cells called bacteria and virus. Ich is neither of these. It is a little bug; a tiny parasite that lives in the "skin" of the fish. In most tanks, the introduction of Garlic Oil into the body of the fish seems to bother the parasite, causing it to leave the fish. Some hobbyists report that Garlic Oil in the water surrounding the fish can cause the parasite to leave. Unfortunately, Garlic Oil, like other natural remedies, is not so potent that it can kill, like a chemical or medication would, it just repels... like mosquito repellent. This means that in some situations, conditions in the tank are such that the Garlic Oil seems to have little effect, or as Dave reported, it had only a temporary effect on an infestation that was already way out of control. Hope this helps. Personally, with all due respect, I believe that adding 10 new fish in 2 months is asking for trouble, even if Garlic Oil had been used and was previously effective. This is why LFS have special procedures and setups to minimize death due to parasites and disease.  ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: DLindquist
Date Posted: October 30 2010 at 11:57am
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Personally, with all due respect, I believe that adding 10 new fish in 2 months is asking for trouble, even if Garlic Oil had been used and was previously effective. This is why LFS have special procedures and setups to minimize death due to parasites and disease. [/QUOTE] Mark, I am curious, what trouble are you referring to? The ich? Or do you have other thoughts in mind? ------------- A government strong enough to give you everything you want, is powerful enough to take everything you have. |
Posted By: Laird
Date Posted: October 30 2010 at 3:43pm
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All my fish got ich after I added my snowflake and borbonious. I can hardly look at my fish under the moon lights because that's when the ich stands out the most, makes me sad and depressed. I run a uv, ozone, and feed garlic flakes all the time. I had an extra uv that I just started running with my other uv and have started to feed with garlic extreme as well. The ich isn't getting any worse but doesn't look much better. I've had ich in my swim tank lots of times but this is the first time any of my reef fish other than my powder blue has had it. ------------- Indefinite hiatus from sw aquariums. Once I have my glorious return I'll set back up the following. 50 Gallon rimless cube. 180 Gallons mixed reef paradise |