Fish loss
Printed From: Utah Reefs
Category: Help
Forum Name: General Help
Forum Description: The place to ask about pest, problems, hitchhikers, etc.
URL: http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55170
Printed Date: April 27 2024 at 9:10am
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Topic: Fish loss
Posted By: Moosetang
Subject: Fish loss
Date Posted: March 19 2012 at 10:58pm
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Iv been running this system for 6 months. In the past week and a half Iv lost two clowns a potters angel and a sailfin tang. But heaven forbid I can keep a cleaner wrass alive for months. I don't understand. Any advice? Thanks! |
Replies:
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: March 20 2012 at 1:37am
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Aquariums go through many changes in their first year. They grow and mature, populations of bugs, worms and bacteria bloom for a while then die back. It's all part of the circle of life. We don't often notice the die off of a bacterial or bug population but it hurts when it's some of our larger pets. How long had these fish been in the aquarium? Did the fish show signs of stress or illness, Ich, etc.? Any invertebrate problems? Snails, crabs, shrimp, or coral? Please feel free to share a picture of the system, just in case we can identify any problems.  ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member 
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Posted By: Moosetang
Date Posted: March 20 2012 at 7:18am
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The potters did get ich so I understand that. But the clowns and the sailfin seemed great. All I have living is a blue hippo, 2 chromis, yellow eye tang and a cleaner wrass. Crabs, shrimp and coral are doing great. Water tested also: Nitrate-0 Nitrite-0 Ammonia-0 Phosphates-0.01 Alk-5.8 Calc-460 Mag-1000 I am adjusting the Alk and Mag because I know they need to be a little higher. You say it changes a lot in the first 6 months, when would be a sign of the tank stabilizing? I appreciate all your help. I can post a picture tonight. |
Posted By: Moosetang
Date Posted: March 20 2012 at 10:57pm
| Well looks like my blue hippo is packing her bags :( all the fish Iv just lost have been in the system for well over 3 months. I don't know what to do or where to go at this point |
Posted By: WhiteReef
Date Posted: March 20 2012 at 11:09pm
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Are you using any garlic when you feed your fish? It can help improve their immune system and can help with their survival. Many people that keep tangs use garlic regularly to help keep them healthy. Also some people swear by using a UV system to help get rid of pathogens that can affect your fish. ------------- ---------------- Richard Former 47G Column Reef, Magna 20" x 18" x 31"H |
Posted By: DLindquist
Date Posted: March 21 2012 at 7:57am
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I've been bouncing through your first post addressing the problems you're having (you may find it easier keeping everything relating to thoses issues in the same post. Doing so keeps everyone on the same page and avoids a lot of repeat questions). Some potential problems I see: *A relative young tank to which a lot of fish have been added, this includes upwards of four or more tangs and a pair of clowns- both yellow tangs and clowns become very territorial over time. I'm a huge fan of tangs, I added our prized Blond Naso to our 265G about a month ago. This guy is always on the move as many of the larger fish usually are. Your 72G is minimally sized for these type of fish (yes, I know people pack their nano's with tangs all the time). I believe you may have overdosed ozone in the past and had a pump with vibration issues. Add to this stressful situation, a fish carrying ich. Now many of your fish are fighting for their lives. I would suggest holding off on adding any more tangs or even adding more fish for now. I am not 100% on the benifits of feeding garlic, but I do ocassionally use it. A UV sterilizer is an additional and expensive piece of equipment that could help but will not rid your tank of ich. Feed a balanced diet and ensure the fish are getting enough to eat (but it shouldn't take longer than 3-5 minutes to consume the food you're adding). Add a nori sheet of some sort at least every other day, preferably daily- unless your tangs won't eat it. Our Naso tears his piece apart like it's his last meal- usually before I even have time to place it in the veggie clip. Raise your Mag and Alk levels as you've suggested and maintain some time of water change schedule. I would suggest 10-15% every 4-6 weeks if everything tests out okay and things are looking good. ------------- A government strong enough to give you everything you want, is powerful enough to take everything you have. |
Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: March 21 2012 at 9:50am
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Dave has given you some sound advice.
The only other advice I would add is I like to do a little research on a fish before I buy (if I have never kept that particular type of fish before) just to see other people's experiences with the fish.
I suggest this because some of the fish you have mentioned are fairly delicate and / or challenging to keep alive long-term. Potters Angels are probably the most delicate of all the dwarf angels; often times not getting enough to eat since they need to graze algae off of rocks and such continuously. A 6 - month old tank is probably lacking a sufficent quantity and diversity of the needed food items.
A better choice, that looks similar, would be a Coral Beauty. Much hardier fish IMO.
Hippo Tangs are usually not super hard to keep - but they are notorious "ick magnets", meaning they are very prone to get the parasite. Hippos are also different from most Tangs in that they are 'mid water plankton feeders' instead of herbivorious algae grazers like most other Tangs. This means they need more 'meat' in their diet than other Tangs; bloodworms, mysis shrimp, even things like frozen mussels, scallop, squid will be eaten. They will eat veggies, too - but they are not exclusively vegetarians...
And I agree w/ Mark - put up a full tank shot and that may help us better evaluate your situation.
------------- - My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) - * Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 * |
Posted By: Moosetang
Date Posted: March 21 2012 at 11:10am
| Wow!! I love this site! You guys are amazing!! If I don't get to busy I'll get that picture up tonight. I do use garlic every feed. The ozone has been off for about 2 months and the UV has been on since. Seems like every step foward is 5 steps back |
Posted By: Moosetang
Date Posted: March 21 2012 at 8:34pm
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Posted By: DLindquist
Date Posted: March 21 2012 at 8:35pm
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I would suggest using garlic a little more sparingly. More often when ich is present is okay, but maybe weekly or even monthly once things are looking better. While we can find a lot of info about people's "opinions" as to the benefits of using garlic, I'm being to wonder about the overuse and any possible long term effects of such. Keep in mind- Garlic is not a cure all and in my opinion may not be any cure at all. ------------- A government strong enough to give you everything you want, is powerful enough to take everything you have. |
Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: March 21 2012 at 9:30pm
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What kind of flow do you have in your tank? Pumps, powerheads, etc... ------------- - My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) - * Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 * |
Posted By: Moosetang
Date Posted: March 21 2012 at 9:58pm
| I have two Koralia powerheads@750 gph. And the return which is a Rio 14. That's all the flow I have |
Posted By: Moosetang
Date Posted: March 23 2012 at 7:49am
| Any other suggestions? |
Posted By: DLindquist
Date Posted: March 23 2012 at 8:13am
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I am a huge fan of water flow. We are pushing almost 15,000GPH at peak capacity (our Vortech's cycles vary throughout the day). More flow could help. -Looking at the picture, the top water surface looks completly flat. IF this is the case, I would suggest repositioning your pumps to brake that water surface up. Oxygenation and aeration are huge success factors in a tank. -I'm currious. With your low Alk level, have you by chance tested your PH? Your rock seems rather dark to me. I have no science to my habbits but low PH, copper poisoning, anaerobic conditions- something along those lines keep popping up in my mind. -What type of filtration are you employing? I am a huge fan of filter socks. Any media? Carbon or the such? Mabey a few more pictures- included complete set up pics... ------------- A government strong enough to give you everything you want, is powerful enough to take everything you have. |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: March 23 2012 at 11:31am
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To get better flow, remove the fan nozzle attachments and curl the loc-line down as much as possible and then back up to point both returns diagonally up at the water surface. I agree that the tank should be left alone for 3-6 weeks. Do not add any fish. Let it settle down. The still living Cleaner Wrasse tells us that something is different here. Does it eat the fish food? If the Garlic product you are using did not eliminate visible Ich within 3 days, it won't help to do more frequent or larger doses. How many different Garlic products did you try and what is being used presently? We need to see the Sump/Refugium. ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: Moosetang
Date Posted: March 23 2012 at 12:10pm
| I guess the thing that gets me is I know some people that have a tank set up for 2-3 months and doing great and I'm almost 7 months and I'm struggling so bad. My cleaner wrass does eat fish food. All Iv ever been told to use is garlic guard from sechem. I have a filter sock with carbon in it. Iv always been told that if the Alk is good then Ph is in check . I will reposition the power heads when I get home today. My coral seems to do great I just can't keep a fish alive for more than 2 weeks at best. I hate this! |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: March 24 2012 at 12:40pm
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Some people seem to have a knack for this. I call it a "wet thumb". Most people that set up successful tanks in 3 months as you described have already set up tanks before and know how to do it (or they followed my instructions to the "T") and there are a whole lot of hobbyists that get really lucky. I've seen loads of them. The instructions about using Garlic Oil to handle Ich talk about how each tank is different so if one product doesn't work with in a few days, to use a different one. Read the posts from the guy who was the first to use it here and went on to develop it's use in many different aquariums: http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=34014" rel="nofollow - http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=34014 Activated Carbon(AC) is best placed near the return pump screen to clean the water going back up to the tank. I would not place a bag of AC in a filter sock. The force of the water coming down can pulverize it and send AC dust all over the aquarium. Carbon dust is a bad irritation for fish. Another reason that AC should not be placed inside the filter sock is that is where all the crud coming down from the tank is trapped. That crud will quickly foul the AC as well as clog the mesh of the bag holding it. The Alk number of 5.8 is not just a little low. It's drastically low. Alk needs to be kept stable around 9-10 dKH or the entire tank will suffer and die. Please forgive me if my words seem a little harsh, I mean no offense, but in time, if you keep at this, you can learn how to do it so that it works. If coral are doing okay, why not leave the tank to grow and mature a little more and spend your time reading and learning about how to make it a more favorable habitat for fish. Letting it grow, especially letting a lot of Caulerpa grow in the tank has been a major way that I have had success with fish without having to use special equipment. The pic below shows an oyster growing on the LR of a ~6 month old tank. The Caulerpa was much thicker before I added some Tangs. They loved eating the massive growth. It made them fat and healthy. The light is direct sunlight, which is absolutely awesome for a reef.  Another pic, standing back a bit.  ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: rbrinton2373
Date Posted: March 24 2012 at 2:37pm
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When I set up my first tank I could keep everything alive except for fish, even clowns would only live for a month or so. After trying a lot of different things my LFS guys (Ryan at Aquatic Dreams) asked if I had one of those grounding probes installed. Which I did not. So my question to you is do you have one installed? Ryan at AD showed my that without one there is enough electrical current running through a tank to trigger a voltage tester. (The beeper kind) and explained that for some reason the electricity does not affect corals and other invertebrates as it does fish. After I put one in my tank did great. Also I have heard that tangs, as cool as they are, are Ich farms so with a low alk, ich, and anything else that might be wrong could be problematic for all other fish.
------------- Ryan Semper Fi 60 gal cube w/39 gal Sump\ MH + T5s |
Posted By: Moosetang
Date Posted: March 24 2012 at 9:27pm
| Oh yes I know Ryan quite well. I do have a probe. He has been helping a lot. I do remember a while back I had a my bagged carbon break and some carbon made its way into the sump. I know some loose carbon got into the sump. Should I get it all cleaned out? As far as the Alk I'm going by what my tests say to what Thrive tells me to dose. should I move the probe from the sump to the display? Or have two probes one for the sump and one for the display? Would you recommend replacing the probe? I'm just so lost |
Posted By: HPballer76
Date Posted: March 24 2012 at 10:42pm
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after reading this thread i started doing some research on grounding probes since i don't currently have one. i found this http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f60/do-i-need-a-grounding-probe-125659.html#post1070133 its a pretty good read on probes and current in a tank if you have the time.
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Posted By: DLindquist
Date Posted: March 24 2012 at 10:58pm
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17 years reefing and I've never used a grounding probe. Our last set up must of had a short somewhere. If I touched the reflector while my arm was in the water, I got a jolt. Never affected any coral or fish. I read somewhere on RC about the potential problems associated with using a grounding probe- something about completing the circuit. I personally question this being the problem. ------------- A government strong enough to give you everything you want, is powerful enough to take everything you have. |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: March 25 2012 at 10:56am
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Grounding probes have never been part of my systems, though I don't doubt that they could help in some situations, but it's important to remember that every tank is different and that a grounding probe really should be used in combination with a GFCI. This has been discussed by us here many times. Some granules of AC won't hurt a thing. It's the dust that has been known to cause problems. I don't care what Thrive says to dose. A reading of 5.8 dKH means you better add a lot more Alkalinity quickly or the entire tank will soon suffer even more, even the Coral. After all the special products which give instructions for 2-part dosing, you should know the truth. Those instructions are lame. Few tanks will last long by continuously dosing equal parts. A hobbyist needs to learn that if Calcium is low, more Calcium solution needs to be added and if Alkalinity is low, add more Alkalinity solution. Alkalinity is just simple Baking Soda. Baking soda is a very common chemical called Bicarbonate of Soda (NaHCO3). It should be added in sufficient quantity/frequency to keep Alk at 8-14 dKH . The water is all connected. The probe can be placed anywhere in the water but is most convenient and out of sight in the Sump/Refugium. For now, I wouldn't worry another moment about the grounding probe. If I were you, I would arrange to learn from other hobbyists. Go visit them, see their tanks and talk fish. It's easy to meet others right here and to ask to visit. Most of us love to show off our tanks and are very happy to help another hobbyist. ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: rbrinton2373
Date Posted: March 25 2012 at 11:47am
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On the probe I have mine in my main tank but is hidden behind the overflow. ------------- Ryan Semper Fi 60 gal cube w/39 gal Sump\ MH + T5s |
Posted By: Moosetang
Date Posted: March 25 2012 at 12:24pm
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I would love to see other peoples tanks and get straight bare bone advice. I just can't keep throwing money and time into something with no result. If anyone is interested. I now seem to have an increase of hair algae. Fish dying and now this. I can't get out of this hole |
Posted By: MIK3B
Date Posted: March 25 2012 at 3:56pm
Hang in there! I've lost SO much money and livestock in my ~ 12 years doing this, I'd almost rather not think about it. So painful to watch stuff die  and flush money down the drain but we are here to help.Patience, chemistry and proper levels are essential in this hobby, and once you find that balance you'll stop losing fish for the most part. Stuff will die, but it shouldn't be as frequently. Crashes are tough and the snowball effect can be disastrous, things just keep dying, which knocks the levels even more out of balance, which causes more die off, and on and on and on. A hospital/quarantine tank is especially helpful, and although it can be tough to catch fish to get them into quarantine can be tough, it's better than having everything crash. The Reef Tour is next month - feel free to come and see my setup and ask all the questions in the world. I am not saying mine is perfect by any means, but IMO, it really helps to see successful setups although as they say "your mileage may vary" |
Posted By: Moosetang
Date Posted: March 30 2012 at 10:06pm
| Well now I face hair algae. And a lot of it. My water tests near perfect now. Ugh |
Posted By: Moosetang
Date Posted: April 01 2012 at 1:06am
| I guess there is no more advice. Thank anyway |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: April 01 2012 at 10:26am
Oh my goodness, of course I have tons of advice.  This is my 15,498th post but only a portion of what I have learned in this hobby is written here.Have you followed the advice given above? "If I were you, I would arrange to learn from other hobbyists. Go visit them, see their tanks and talk fish. It's easy to meet others right here and to ask to visit. Most of us love to show off our tanks and are very happy to help another hobbyist." We haven't yet talked about the easy way to find if extra stray electricity is running through your tank. I give more advice on controlling algae than any other problem. If you have read the Reefkeeping Tips thread linked below, you probably found this, my experience in 1996 with http://garf.org/ugly.html" rel="nofollow - the Ugly Green Haired Mermaid in my tank . My advice regarding nuisance algae is in several Tips but can be summed up in three words, "Snails, Snails, Snails". These need to be herbivorous snails, not the dirt cheap Nasarrius Snails that don't eat algae. It really helps if you could post a pic of the tank and ask specific questions. ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: April 20 2012 at 11:44am
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Please give an update, telling what has been done/added to the tank and it's history of the last few weeks. Also tell us what Garlic Products were used, when did Ich reappear, and how long recent fish survived. Please feel free to call. It's sometimes easier to talk things through because as we talk, things will come to mind that never would have come up in typing. ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: Moosetang
Date Posted: April 23 2012 at 8:38am
| I have since added 25 turbo snails for the algea problem. I didnt have any snail at all before and they are doing a hell of a job! Im so impressed!! Snails were added last saturday so now my question is, whats my next step? Should I wait a little while longer to try fish again? In all honesty I dont remember when I added a fish, its been that long. I guess iv let the tank go unnoticed for me exept for maintain it and up keep. Coral continues to do great. I just want some fish to compliment it and bring everything together. |
Posted By: Davidwillis
Date Posted: April 23 2012 at 8:59am
| I would say try adding a damsel, and document on here what happens (with pictures). |
Posted By: McClure
Date Posted: April 23 2012 at 11:59am
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A damsel? Why? Because it is cheap? I disagree. If cheap is the reason, there are plenty of other choices.... an extra Chromis for example that will school with the already existing ones. Damsels are mean and very hard to catch once you decide (which most people do) that you no longer want it in the tank. David, do you have another reason for choosing damsel? I am by no means an expert and would love to hear the reasoning. |
Posted By: Davidwillis
Date Posted: April 23 2012 at 12:17pm
| They are cheap and hardy (and he mentioned that he can't even keep them alive). But a chromis is fine too. |
Posted By: McClure
Date Posted: April 23 2012 at 12:35pm
| They're definitely hardy. I always feel bad when I see damsels, I feel like they are destined for the home made spear when people get sick of them. |
Posted By: Moosetang
Date Posted: April 23 2012 at 1:43pm
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Iv never been a fan of damsels anyway and chromis are so plain. But ill give it a shot in about another week. Wish me luck!
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Posted By: McClure
Date Posted: April 23 2012 at 1:48pm
| Gobies are usually fairly inexpensive. Good Luck!! |
Posted By: SkylerS
Date Posted: April 23 2012 at 4:24pm
+1 Or likewish similarly cheap hardy fish. Take daily water parameters and notate fish behavior and health, preferably with photos. |
Davidwillis wrote:Posted By: Moosetang
Date Posted: April 23 2012 at 7:10pm
| Ill keep an update. With pics |
Posted By: Melissa
Date Posted: April 24 2012 at 8:23am
| What you need to do is add an ugly or really mean fish that you hate. It will last for years |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: April 24 2012 at 11:10am
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I respectfully disagree. I would not use a Damsel in this way. There is no need to shoot aimless into the dark. We can illuminate this and actually help you resolve the problem. To work toward the resolution, please post a pic of how it looks today and what are the most recent Alk and Ca readings. Also, as requested earlier, please show a pic of the sump/Refugium area. Is there a glass top over this tank? After re-examining the pic on the previous page, I'd like to see a closeup pic of the left side of the tank, specifically the rock there, maybe even taken from the side. Oh, and can you test the pH at between 5-6AM and share the result with us? Thanks ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: Davidwillis
Date Posted: April 24 2012 at 11:17am
I suggested it because we have no information on why his fish died (other than ich). All parameters are good now, so the only way I know of to find out what is happening is to get more data on what happens when a fish is added. However I know you have much more experience, and may figure it out with what we have, so that is great!! |
Posted By: Moosetang
Date Posted: April 24 2012 at 12:12pm
| I actually did test the Ph this morning and it was at 8.2. I can get pics up tonight. It is an open top as far as a cover that was mentioned. Is there a specific rock mark that you need to see or just the left side in general? |
Posted By: Moosetang
Date Posted: April 25 2012 at 7:44am
| I know I'm slacking on the pictures but here's an update. Algae is 95% gone. This is great! I would love to add a couple clowns. Would that be to much in the situation I'm in? Iv had clowns in the system before and did great but I traded them in. What your opinion. Thanks guys!! |
Posted By: Moosetang
Date Posted: April 25 2012 at 7:48am
| I did get my water tested yesterday. I don't have all the numbers with me but everything checked out good Exept phosphates. They were at .08. Added phosphate remover. |
Posted By: Davidwillis
Date Posted: April 25 2012 at 11:50am
I thought you could not keep a fish alive in the tank for more than 2 days? If you want any help in the matter, you have to share more information with us. 1- give a complete history of the tank, including fish/corals added, and how long they lived and what hapened to them. Also any changes you have made to the tank, what conditions were like. If you don't give us details we cannot help. 2- post some pictures of rock, sand, sump, (every detail helps) 3- give us all current water parameters Without that we are just guessing. |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: April 25 2012 at 11:58am
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A clear pic of the left side of the tank is what I was asking for. I want to see that LR because it may hold a clue to the fish mortality problem. I feel David's frustration. Please provide more information. We really can resolve this problem, but not without your help. ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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