Help Ick that Won't Go Away.
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Category: Help
Forum Name: EMERGENCY FORUM
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URL: http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=59739
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Topic: Help Ick that Won't Go Away.
Posted By: Sculpin
Subject: Help Ick that Won't Go Away.
Date Posted: October 16 2012 at 6:44pm
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Hey guys seems that I only come on here these days to get some help and this post is no different. Currently my tank looks pretty healthy appart from a blight of ick I've got that my fish can't seem to shake. I've been feeding garlic in their pellets every day for over 2 weeks and it appears to be getting worse. Here is the details: 225 gal tank Salinity: 1.025 Ph: 8.6 Alk: 12 dkh Ca: 370 Mag: 1050 No3: trace Phosphate: trace Fish Population: Powder Blue Tang (haven's seen it today, I feer the worst), blue tang, sailfin tang, kliens butterfly, 2 firefish, 3 clowns, anthia, and I think thats about it. Coral: Mix of softies, LPS's, and 3 anemones. Please let me know what you advice and thank you in advance for your help. Micah
------------- 225 Reef (not really mine but i act like it is) 29 Biocube http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=45353" rel="nofollow - My Whole House System Build |
Replies:
Posted By: Crzyfshguy
Date Posted: October 16 2012 at 6:50pm
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What kind of garlic are you using? I would try raising the temp a few degrees. Stay under 81-82, and lower the salinity slowly to about 1.021. Try this for a few days to a week, then slowly go back to usual. ------------- 45G w/ leds 15G sump MP10es |
Posted By: ReefdUp
Date Posted: October 16 2012 at 6:58pm
| Ich is like fleas - you won't get rid of them unless you kill them all. You can control them, but as soon as you let your guard down, they'll come back. With the particularly sensitive fish you have, you should treat them ALL outside the tank. |
Posted By: Crzyfshguy
Date Posted: October 16 2012 at 7:12pm
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I agree that treating outside the tank works well. Heck a freshwater dip works miracles but the process of catching the fish, treating and returning to the tank is usually more harm then good and very stressful on the fish. Every tank has ich... But healthy fish simply don't get sick with it. I get a random flare up of ich about twice a year, I raise the temp, and double the garlic intake and it's gone within a few days. I do however keep my Salinity on the low end, and my temp on the high end anyhow. I would have to guess the fish are happier this way. ------------- 45G w/ leds 15G sump MP10es |
Posted By: ReefdUp
Date Posted: October 16 2012 at 7:23pm
No, not every tank has ich. Only those who don't treat for ich have tanks with ich. Fish do better at lower salinities because they have to work less to maintain osmotic balance. However, corals, some bacteria, and other critters do not tolerate low salinities. If you drop a salinity too low in a reef tank, you risk losing everything. |
Crzyfshguy wrote:Posted By: Ann_A
Date Posted: October 16 2012 at 8:50pm
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ReefdUp has years of experience with dealing with pests and parasites in the aquarium, and has an awesome website with lots of great information. Here is a link to her article on proper treatments of ich. http://www.reefdup.com/2012/01/28/fish-quarantine-treatment-for-marine-ich/" rel="nofollow - http://www.reefdup.com/2012/01/28/fish-quarantine-treatment-for-marine-ich/ ReefdUp- I hope you don't mind me posting your own materials here.  ------------- http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=53856&title=annes-65g-rsm-reef" rel="nofollow - RSM 250 Reef |
Posted By: ReefdUp
Date Posted: October 16 2012 at 9:08pm
| Aww, thanks Ann! I try to not post my site too often...don't want to look like I'm advertising or just too lazy to actually try to help. :) |
Posted By: Molli
Date Posted: October 16 2012 at 9:20pm
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Posted By: phys
Date Posted: October 17 2012 at 12:52am
| set up a large quarantine tank for your fish and move them there for 8 weeks and treat with copper (be sure you maintain healthy levels and check often!), feed garlic (this isn't proven but many say it helps), and make sure they're low stress and well fed (keep your tank healthy too!). This will help get rid of the ich off your fish and give the main tank a long enough period of time for the free floating parasites and eggs to go through their life cycle. Any less time than 8 weeks will just hinder your efforts. |
Posted By: Sculpin
Date Posted: October 18 2012 at 3:04pm
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The garlic I'm using is Kent's.
Thank you for the assistance. Removing all the fish out of the tank is pretty much unfeasible. It's a 225 loaded with live rock and coral so catching the fish will be near imposible and add stress to the already stressed out fish. Here is my game plan and if you can think of anything I'm missing let me know- Step 1: Slowly lower salinity to approx 1.021 Step 2: Slowly Rais Temp to 82 Step 3: Do a Water Change Step 4: Increase garlic feeding to twice a day Step 5: Install an Ozone unit (I used to have one back in the day but I've been without one for over a year now). Micah
------------- 225 Reef (not really mine but i act like it is) 29 Biocube http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=45353" rel="nofollow - My Whole House System Build |
Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: October 18 2012 at 3:31pm
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Nikki is right; not being able to remove the fish and treat outside the tank is going to make this very tough to get rid of.
Honestly... all 3 tangs (at least) are probably going to get sick eventually.
I'm not sure Step 3 is going to gain you anything right now.
Ozone may help. I'd look into a UV sterilizer as well.
Good Luck Micah ------------- - My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) - * Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 * |
Posted By: phys
Date Posted: October 18 2012 at 3:33pm
| not to sound pessimistic, but that more than likely will not get rid of your ich problem. If you can't remove your fish, then make sure you keep them healthy so they have a high chance of survival. |
Posted By: Molli
Date Posted: October 18 2012 at 4:25pm
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I think you are going to have to face the music eventually and treat the ich, which means removing the fish or removing everything but the fish.
Lowering your salinity to 1.021 is going to be pretty tough on your corals isn't it?
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Posted By: wickedsnowman
Date Posted: October 18 2012 at 6:13pm
| I have never quarantined a fish in my life. I also have never lost a fish to ick. I personally believe a fish that already has ick shouldn't be removed... you are just going to stress it out more and lose the battle. I agree that setting up a quarantine system and putting all new fish in it is the only way to prevent it 100 percent. However u will also need a seperate quarantine for coral. Even one drop of water from another tank and your back to sqaure one that means no live rock from other people, no macro etc. I don't think the quarantine thing is really feasable for most hobbist. My wife would kill me with the amount of tanks I would need to set up to prevent ick. So for me I will continue to do what I have always done and dip corals for bugs and try to provide my fish with a healthy safe haven to battle paracites. I do also run UV though.. I think garlic works too don't know why and it may be a coincedence but it has cured some tangs for me. So I think your plan sounds good! Best of luck man |
Posted By: Molli
Date Posted: October 18 2012 at 6:45pm
I'm not in a hurry to fill up my tank, so the way I do it is to purchase some corals and quarantine them. Once my coral quarantine tank is empty, I'll decide if its time to buy a fish or more corals. I agree, you can't quarantine them both at the same time without 2 tanks. Sometimes its really really hard to be patient with my purchases when I see something on the boards I would really like to have. But I try to think long term and know that whatever I think I want will be for sale sometime in the future when I'm ready for it. I've read that garlic doesn't do one bit of good, but I know many people seem to think that it does.
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Posted By: Crzyfshguy
Date Posted: October 18 2012 at 11:35pm
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I keep my system at 1.021-1.022 salinity all the time, Corals don't have any issues and the fish are much happier at the lower salinity. I think your game plan is a great start for now, seeing how you cannot remove the fish without causing serious stress from hours of chasing them around. ------------- 45G w/ leds 15G sump MP10es |
Posted By: bur01014
Date Posted: October 19 2012 at 12:22am
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JMO... A hospital tank is not effective, if it almost takes the fish's life from the stress of catching it.... I'd do all I could to feed that tank as heavy as possible without significantly reducing the quality of the water.....this can typically be done by small feedings several times a day The more you are able to keep their bellies full and happy, while maintaining good water chemistry, the greater chance they'll have. Btw- I've had ich appear on tangs for 3+ weeks and they ended up fine, so don't give up and try to de-stress their environment...hands out of the tank, etc. +2 to every tank likely has ich...I don't want to get started on this argument though...  btw- try the New Life Spectrum Thera +A formula pellets, is something to that effect, I've had good success with them as they are filled with garlic and my fish go crazy for them...
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Posted By: bur01014
Date Posted: October 19 2012 at 12:28am
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[/QUOTE] I know I'm a lot newer to this hobby than you are, but I don't think my tank has ich. I have quarantined everything that has entered my tank and I intend to continue to do so. [/QUOTE] Please don't take offense, but this is one of the biggest myths out there...quarantine reduces your chances of carrying disease into your tank, but is far from 100%... evidence is non-existent on coral dips and ich, one small droplet of tank water from an LFS on a coral could carry ich into your tank....quarantine is far from a guarantee. lol, guess I can't quote someone right
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Posted By: wickedsnowman
Date Posted: October 19 2012 at 1:09am
| So this is kind of off topic but it has been bugging me about the ick life cycle. I have had it show up a few times over the years only on tangs might I add. From reading the info that has been posted about the ick life cycle recently it got me thinking. There has been huge gaps of time with no ick visiable on my fish . Like I can see it pop up disappear after a few days and not see it again for like 5 months. How is this possible if it needs the part of the cycle were they are a paracite on the fish in order to survive and the total life span of ick is only 6 to 8 weeks? |
Posted By: Molli
Date Posted: October 19 2012 at 7:45am
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Posted By: Sculpin
Date Posted: October 19 2012 at 9:22am
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Update: So I picked up an ozone unit and an ORP probe from MSM last night. I'm currently waiting for the ORP to settle in before I switch on the Ozone. While I was their they had a big ole' cleaner shrimp so I picked it up hoping it would help clean the fish. After drip acclimating it I popped it in and within about 30 minutes he was cleaning the remaining tangs so that's awesome right? I removed some water and let my top off fill it back up with fresh but I didn't test salinity (I don't think it dropped it too much, I removed about 3 gallons and I'll do it again today hoping for a gradual reduction in salinity). I've also been keeping the temp at a steady 80 degrees. Here's a questions- Would a high PH result in fish stress? I ask because it is the only thing in my tank that has changed. I noticed last night my AC Apex was showing a PH shifts up to 8.9. I believe it's peaked because of the addition of a fresh MH lightbulb, a bunch of bubbles in the tank due to not swapping out my poly bag last week, but most of all I dossed some dkh buffer to help boost my alk several weeks ago (it worked but I think a little too well). Lowering the salinity has lowered the PH to around 8.6, I've swapped out the poly bag so no more bubbles, I've turned off 2 of my 3 MH lights, and I'll be doing a water change this weekend so I think that will help as well but I'm no chemist. If you guys have opinions on how to shift it (or even if I should worry about it) please lt me know. Normally it hangs around 8.45. Let me know what you think and thank you a ton! Micah ------------- 225 Reef (not really mine but i act like it is) 29 Biocube http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=45353" rel="nofollow - My Whole House System Build |
Posted By: bur01014
Date Posted: October 19 2012 at 10:10am
I just said quarantine isn't a 100% guarantee...nothing about being a "waste of time".... However, now that you mentioned it though, it is a waste of time, IMO.....the effort, time, and resources needed to have a properly running quarantine system for both fish and corals out of a home can be daunting and IMO outweigh the potential benefits and risks for not quarantining. I only feel I can say this, because during my early years in the hobby I had a full-time quarantine system. The hobby became unmanageable and I did not see the benefits. This isn't for everyone though, some people have good success with quarantine systems, but the beauty of these forums is to share advice with fellow reefers that has worked for you. I don't purposely try to mislead "newbies" like you say...but perhaps you should take a poll on here to see how many of the "oldies" actually and truthfully have properly running quarantine systems in their homes. I think you'd find it to be less than 50%. Furthermore, the difference in fish survival and coral health between both types of hobbyists would not be statistically significant. In other words, people have success both routes. Now back to the issue....how are those fish Sculpin? |
Posted By: bur01014
Date Posted: October 19 2012 at 10:12am
You running a fuge light at all? If so, what hours? |
Posted By: Molli
Date Posted: October 19 2012 at 10:35am
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Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: October 19 2012 at 10:38am
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A pH of 8.9 is way high and will definitely stress everything out.
Even 8.6 is too high. I'd say 8.4 is about the limit.
Are you sure your probe is functioning properly? ------------- - My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) - * Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 * |
Posted By: Sculpin
Date Posted: October 19 2012 at 11:04am
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I'm pretty sure the probe is functioning properly but I plan to recalibrate it soon. Even uncalibrated if my PH was showing 8.9 at its peak that could definitely explain the stress on the fish and why they would get an ick breakout. They've had ick before but a little more feeding with some garlic always has cured the issue (except for this time of course. Plus, it would make sense that I would get a PH spike if I overdosed with the DKH buffer. That is scary stuff and I'll have to admit I got a little liberal with it. I'm at work right now but when I get off I'll see how things are rolling and update you guys. As far as what my apex is telling me right now: Temp 79.9 PH 8.61 Micah
------------- 225 Reef (not really mine but i act like it is) 29 Biocube http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=45353" rel="nofollow - My Whole House System Build |
Posted By: improdigal
Date Posted: October 19 2012 at 11:35am
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I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned yet, but I'm seeing alot of good side helpers to the ick problem, but I haven't seen any suggest the natural and most effective method yet. Ich Outbreak = time to buy an small army of cleaner shrimp  I've had a few bouts of ich in my tank when it was early on, and one really bad one once. I did the garlic food, but that really just speeds up the ich lifecycle. They jump off the fish cause they don't like the garlic taste, but then they just swim to another host. As soon as I mentioned it to a pro they said to go buy some shrimps and wrasse and they'll be fine. So I bought probably 4 peppermint shrimp (cheap), a couple normal cleaner shrimp, a fire shrimp, and a banded coral shrimp (hey, I like shrimp). Fount the peppermint shrimp didn't do much, and the banded coral shrimp are too rough (would try to take chunks of the fish along with the ich), but the rest of the shrimp became the fishies best friends... and it was totally hilarious to watch. Any fish that had Ich would swim up to a shrimp and wait... the shrimp would hop on their side/back and start eating the ich off. Sometimes, we would watch a tang swim around for 30 seconds with a shrimp latched on his side eating away... happy as a clam. And the fireshrimp LOL... he had his own cave, that has forever since been nicknamed "the carwash"... fish would literally BACK THEMSELVES into his cave, he would climb around the walls, hop on their back... eat a few, hop back on the walls crawl up and over to the other side, hop on and eat... absolutely hilarious to watch... as soon as the ich was gone.. fish would swim off with a smile. Ich was gone.. in probably 1-2 weeks and never came back. ------------- Patrick |
Posted By: Sculpin
Date Posted: October 19 2012 at 12:05pm
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Good advice improdigal, I did just pick up a cleaner shrimp last night and it already has been working on the fish. Knowing that I already had ick years before this got bad I knew there was a bigger issue going on and I hope I've found it. We'll see when I get off work how things are progressing. Micah ------------- 225 Reef (not really mine but i act like it is) 29 Biocube http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=45353" rel="nofollow - My Whole House System Build |
Posted By: wickedsnowman
Date Posted: October 19 2012 at 12:54pm
| What is your alk? Why are you dosing the buffer is that what you use for your alk supplementation? |
Posted By: Sculpin
Date Posted: October 19 2012 at 1:12pm
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My alk is now at 14 dkh (checked a week ago so it's probably a bit lower now). I've not dosed since. I was dosing because it was down to 7.8 dkh (if I remember correctly) before several doses of buffer about a month ago. The mistake I made was dosing twice over the month without checking the dkh on the second dose. I think that is were I got in trouble. Micah ------------- 225 Reef (not really mine but i act like it is) 29 Biocube http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=45353" rel="nofollow - My Whole House System Build |
Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: October 19 2012 at 1:14pm
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Micah -
Did you say you raised your alk from 8.6 to 14 within one month, and you did it by dosing 2 times within that month?
------------- - My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) - * Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 * |
Posted By: bur01014
Date Posted: October 19 2012 at 1:17pm
| wow, this is definitely an issue! |
Posted By: Sculpin
Date Posted: October 19 2012 at 1:20pm
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It may of been over a month and a half actually and my dosage was likely more concentrated then I usually do. The big issue was that I was lazy (i.e. I didn't keep track of when, how much, and how often I dosed). I saw low dkh, dosed heavy and am now in this mess. Plus I didn't realize high ph had such a negative effect on fish. Micah
------------- 225 Reef (not really mine but i act like it is) 29 Biocube http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=45353" rel="nofollow - My Whole House System Build |
Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: October 19 2012 at 1:27pm
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Yeah, just remember to dose in amounts that will not raise your alk by more than 1.0 dkh at a time. That will defintitely stress things out if you jumped an average of 3.0 dkh per dose
And the high pH is an issue, but also the swing in pH as well. pH should not change more than 0.1 per 24 hour period through chemical means. Yours sounds like it may have been swinging as much as 0.3 or 0.4 daily
How are all your corals handling these changes? Do you have alot of SPS?
------------- - My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) - * Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 * |
Posted By: Sculpin
Date Posted: November 01 2012 at 11:56am
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So I thought I'd pop back in and give you guys an update. So after losing a powder blue tang, yellow tang, lemark angle, kleins butterfly, 3 clownfish, an anthia, and a royal gramma things seems to be settling down and almost back to normal. I've not done a water test recently but the PH is stabilized at 8.5 and the salinity was brought down to 1.022. The tank seems way empty though. all we have left is a firefish, a sailfin tang, and a blue tang. My mom took it pretty hard and doesn't want to get any new fish for a while and if we do we will quarantine every one of them. As for the coral, they have faired great through this process and I have seen no problems what so ever. I'm still pretty confused as to what went wrong but whatever it was I hope we are past it now. We havent had any more deaths for about a week now (knock on wood). ------------- 225 Reef (not really mine but i act like it is) 29 Biocube http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=45353" rel="nofollow - My Whole House System Build |
Posted By: Bryce
Date Posted: November 01 2012 at 12:21pm
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Unless you remove all fish from you tank for 8 weeks (some will say less, some will say more) then quarantining new fish will do nothing to deal with the ich you have in your tank and you will still have ich in your tank. It will however make sure any new fish you may add to your tank are healthy and have a better chance at dealing with the ich in the tank and they may show no symptoms unless they get stressed or sick. ------------- 65g Reef |
Posted By: Molli
Date Posted: November 01 2012 at 12:26pm
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Posted By: Sculpin
Date Posted: November 25 2012 at 2:05am
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I know there will still be ick but to be honest I'm not terribly worried. I've always had ick in my tank ever since I can remember, I just have never seen it this bad. My theory is that I either brought in a new strain of ick with the recent addition of fish or something changed in the tank environment that stressed all the fish causing an outbreak. That said I'd love to get all the fish out and put in my QT but the fact is I would have to rip appart the whole tank just to get to them. I did think about fishing out my two remaining tangs with a very very small hook (i've done it once before) but I still have a firefish that is very timid and I don't think I could catch it. I have set up Ozone on the tank, stabilized all my parameters, and the remaining fish have shown no signs of ick for the past month. I've already purchased a few fish and have them waiting in my QT tank and after a few weeks of observation, if they are healthy I'll pop them in one at a time in the display and see how they handle it. Micah ------------- 225 Reef (not really mine but i act like it is) 29 Biocube http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=45353" rel="nofollow - My Whole House System Build |
Posted By: Bluespotjawfish
Date Posted: November 25 2012 at 6:25am
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Any time you make changes in the tank you stress the fish. Regular consistent maintenance and automation of your dosing will go a long way to reducing stress n your fish and corals. If you dont take the remaining fish out and treat dont bother buying new fish. They will be stressed and succomb to the ich. They will also stress out your existing fish and they could die as well. So, enjoy the ones you have if you dont want to bother. Do you run a uv sterilizer? I have had better luck with lower temps than high temps. Run mine at 78. Consistency is the key though. ------------- Home of the baby Picasso! |